Big Y Matching

A few days ago, Family Tree DNA announced and implemented Big Y Matching between participants who have taken the Big Y test.

This is certainly welcome news.  Let’s take a look at Big Y matching, what it means and how to utilize the features.

First, there are really two different groups of people who will benefit from the Big Y tests.

People trying to sort through lines of a common and related surname – like the McDonald or Campbell families, for example – and haplogroup researchers and project administrators.

My own family, for example, is badly brick walled with Charles Campbell first found in Hawkins County, TN in the 1780s.  We know, via STR testing that indeed, he matches the Campbell Clan from Scotland, but we have no idea who is father might have been.  STR testing hasn’t been definitive enough on Charles’ two known sons’ descendants, so I’m very hopeful that someday enough Campbell men will test that we’ll be able between STR and SNP mutations to at least narrow the possible family lines.  If I’m incredibly lucky, maybe there will be a family line SNP (Novel Variant) and it won’t just narrow the line, it will give me a long-awaited answer by genetically announcing which line was his.  Could I be that lucky???  That’s like winning the genetic genealogy lottery!

For today, the Big Y test at $695 is expensive to run on an entire project of people, not to mention that many of the original participants in projects, the long-time hard-core genealogists, have since passed away.  We are now into our 15th years of genetic genealogy.

For those studying haplogroups, the Big Y is a huge sandbox and those researchers have lost no time whatsoever comparing various individuals’ SNPS, both known and novel, and creating haplogroup trees of those SNPs.  This is done by hand today, or maybe more accurately stated, by Excel.  This is “not fun” to put it mildly.  We owe these folks a huge debt of gratitude.  Their results are curated and posted, provisionally, on the ISOGG Tree.

There is an in-between group as well, and those are people who are working to establish relationships between people of different surnames.  In my case, Native American ancestors whose descendants have different surnames today, but who do share a common ancestor in some timeframe.  That timeframe of course could be anyplace from a couple hundred to several thousand years, since their entry into the Americas across Beringia someplace in the neighborhood of 12-15 thousand years ago.

The Big Y matching is extremely helpful to projects.

Let’s take a look.

Big Y Matches

Big Y landing

On your personal page, under “Other Results,” you’ll see the Big Y results.  Click on Results” and you’ll see the following page.

big y results

The Known SNPs and Novel Variants tabs have been there since release, but the Matching tab, top left, is new.

By clicking on the Matching tab, you will then see the men you match based on your terminal SNP as determined in the Big Y Known SNPs data base.  You will be matched to men who carry up to and including 4 mutations difference in known SNPs, and unlimited novel variant differences.  If you have a zero in the “Known SNP Difference” column, that means you have no differences at all in known SNPs.

big y matches cropped2

The individual being used for an example here has paternal ancestry from Hungary.  His terminal SNP is reported as R-CTS11962.  Therefore, all of the people he matches should also carry this same SNP as their terminal SNP.

This is actually quite interesting, because of his 10 exact matches, 9 of them have surnames or genealogy that suggests eastern European/Slavic ancestry.  The 10th, however, which happens to be his closest match, carries an English surname and reports their ancestor to be from Yorkshire, England.  His one mutation differences carry the same pattern, with one being from England and two of the other three from eastern Europe.

Our participant has 155 total Novel Variants, 135 high quality and 20 medium quality.  Only high quality are listed in the comparison.  Medium quality are not.

Ancestral Location Known SNP Difference Shared Novel Variants Non Matching Known SNPs
Yorkshire, England 0 134 None
Prussia 0 127 None
Ukraine 0 121 None
Poland 0 121 None
Belarus 0 119 None
Poland 0 116 None
Poland 0 116 None
Russian e-mail 0 113 None
Bulgaria 0 113 None
Slovakia 0 111 None
English surname 1 126 PF6085
Undetermined, poss German 1 121 F1816
Poland 1 118 F552
Poland 1 116 CTS10137
Prussia 2 122 CTS11840 PF4522
Poland 2 112 L1029 PR6932
Russia 3 116 CTS3184 L1029 PF3643
Poland 3 106 CTS11962 L1029 L260
Ukraine 3 105 CTS11962 L1029 L260
Poland 3 104 CTS11962 L1029 L260
Poland 3 100 CTS11962 L1029 L260
Poland 3 99 CTS11962 L1029 L260
Eastern European surname 3 98 CTS11962 L1029 L260
Poland/Germany 3 97 CTS11962 L1029 L260
Austria/Galacia 3 93 CTS11962 L1029 L260
Poland 4 97 CTS11562 CTS11962 L1029 L260

It’s also very interesting to note that his non-matching known SNPs tend to cluster.  Non-matching known SNPs can go in either direction – meaning that they could be absent in our participant and present in the rest, or vice versa.

l1029 search

It’s easy to tell.  In the Big Y Results, under Known SNPs, there is a search feature.  This means that it’s easy to search for SNPs and to determine their status.  For example, above, our participant does carry SNP L1029 (he’s derived or positive (+) for the mutation in question).  This means that our participant has developed L1029, and, it just so happens, also CTS11962 and L260, the three clustered SNPs, since these men shared a common ancestor.

It’s difficult not to speculate a little.  If the TMCRA Big Y SNP estimates are correct, this suggests that these 3 clustered SNPS occurred someplace between 4350 and about 5000 years ago, based on the range (93-106) of the number of high quality novel variant differences.  We’ll talk more about this in a minute.

f552 search

For SNP F552, our participant is negative, meaning that that other person has developed this SNP since their shared ancestor.  In fact, he’s negative for all of the other Known SNP differences.

Novel Variants

The Novel Variants are quite interesting.  Novel Variants are mutations that if found in enough people who are not related within a family group will someday become SNPs on the tree.  Think of them as ripening SNPs.

By clicking on the “Show All” dropdown box you can see the list of the participants novel variants and how many of his matches share that Novel Variant.

novel variant list

In this example, all 26 of our participant’s novel variants share 13142597.  I’m thinking that this Novel Variant will someday become classified as a SNP and not as a Novel Variant anymore.  When that happens, and no, we don’t know how often Family Tree DNA will be reviewing the Novel Variants for SNP candidates, it will no longer be in the Novel Variant list.  The Novel Variants are meant to be family, novel or lineage SNPs, not population based SNPS that apply to a wide variety of people.  Finding these, of course, and adding them to the human haplotree is the entire purpose of full sequence Y chromosomal testing.  Just look at tall of this new information about this man’s ancestors and the DNA that they passed on to this gentleman.

By scrolling down to the bottom of that list, we find that our participant has 8 different Novel Variants where he matches only one individual.  By clicking on the Novel Variant number, you can see who he matches.  Of those 8, 7 of them match to the man who carries the English surname and one matches to a gentleman from Prussia.

This information is extremely interesting, but it gets even more interesting when compared against STR matches.  Our participant has a fairly unusual haplotype above 12 markers.  He has three 67 marker matches, two 37 marker matches and thirty-three 25 marker matches.  None of the men he matches on the SNP test match him on any of those tests.  I did not check his 12 marker matches, because I felt that anyone who would invest the money in the Big Y would certainly have tested above 12 markers plus our participants has several hundred 12 marker matches.

The numbers being bantered around by people working with SNP information suggest that one Big Y mutation equals about 150 years.  If this is true, then his closest match, the English gentleman from Yorkshire, England would share an ancestor about 2850 years ago.  That is clearly beyond the reach of STR markers in terms of generational predictions, so maybe STR matches are not expected in this situation, IF, the 150 year per novel variant estimate is close to accurate.

Another interesting piece of information that can be deduced from this information is how many SNPs were actually found.

At the bottom of our participants page, under Known SNPs, it says “Showing 24 of…571 entries (filtered from 36,274 total entries.)”  We know that the entire data base of SNPs that Family Tree is utilizing, which includes but is not limited to the 12,000+ Geno 2.0 SNPs, is 36,274.  In other words, 36,274 are the number of SNPs available to be found and counted as a SNP because they have already been defined as such.  Any other SNPs discovered are counted as Novel Variants.

Not all available SNPs are found and read in this type of next generation test.  The number of “Matching SNPs” with each individual gives us an idea of how many SNPs actually were found and read at either a medium and high confidence level.  Low confidence SNPs and no-calls are eliminated from reporting.

Our participants best match matches him on 25,397 SNPs.  This leaves a total of 10,877 SNPs that were not called.

The Future

SNP Matching is a wonderful feature and a first in this industry.  A hearty thank you to Family Tree DNA!

However, like all passionate people, we are already looking ahead to see what can be and should be done.

Here are some suggestions and questions I have about how the future will unwrap relative to Big Y SNP testing and matching.

  1. Within surname projects, matching should be relatively easy, unless hundreds of people test. I would be happy to have that problem. Today, administrators are creating spreadsheets of matches and novel SNPs and attempting to “reverse engineer” trees. In family groups, those trees would be of Novel SNPs, and in haplogroup projects, those trees would be of both Known SNPs and Novel Variants and where the Novel SNPS slip in-between the known SNPs to create new branches and sub-branches of the haplotree. We, as a community, need some tools to assist in this endeavor, for both the surname project admin and the haplogroup project admin as well.
  2. As new SNPs are discovered in the future, one will not be retested on this platform. As new SNPs are added to the tree, this could affect the matching by terminal SNP. Family Tree DNA needs to be prepared to deal with this eventuality.
  3. As a community, we desperately need a better tool to determine our actual “terminal SNP” as opposed to the Geno 2.0 terminal SNP. Yes, I know the ISOGG tree is provisional, but the contributed tools initially provided by volunteers to search the ISOGG tree utilizing the known SNPs reported in Big Y no longer work. We desperately need something similar while Family Tree DNA is revamping its own tree. I would hope that Family Tree DNA could add something like a secondary “search ISOGG tree” function as a customer courtesy, even if it needs some disclaimer verbiage as to the provisional nature of the tree.
  4. With the number of SNPs being searched for and reported, no calls begin to become an issue, especially if the no-call happens to be on the terminal SNP. We need to be able to determine whether a non-match with someone is actually a non-match or could be as a result of a no-call, and without resorting to searching raw data files. Today, participants can order a SNP test of a SNP position that has been reported as a no-call, but one needs to first figure that out that it is a no-call by looking at the BAM and BED files, something that is beyond the capability of most genetic genealogists. Furthermore, in the case of a “suspicious” no-call, where, for example, individuals in the same surname project with the same surname and other matching SNPS and STRs, some type of “smart-matching” needs to be put into place to alert the participant and project admin of this situation so that they can decide up on a proper course of action. In other words, no-calls need to be reported and accounted for in some fashion, as they are important data points for the genetic genealogist.

I am extremely grateful to Family Tree DNA for their efforts and for Big Y matching.  After all, matching is the backbone of genetic genealogy.  This list is not a complaint list, in any sense.  Family Tree DNA has a very long history of being responsive to their client base and I fully expect they will do the same with the next step in the Big Y journey.

The story of our DNA is not yet told.  Where our STR matches are found and where our SNP matches are found tells the story of the migration of our ancestors.  Today, SNPs and STRs promise to overlap, and already have in some cases.  If I could, I would order a Big Y test for every individual that I sponsor and for every person in each of my projects. I feel that these tests, combined, will help immensely to complete the puzzle to which we have disparate pieces today.  I look forward to the day when the time to the most recent common ancestor can be calculated by utilizing the Y STR markers, the known SNPs and the Novel Variants.  In a very large sense, the future has arrived today.  Now, we just have to test and figure out how all of the puzzle pieces fit together.

If you haven’t yet ordered a Big Y, you can order here.  The more people who test, the larger the comparison data base, and the sooner we will all have the answers we seek.

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Disclosure

I receive a small contribution when you click on some of the links to vendors in my articles. This does NOT increase the price you pay but helps me to keep the lights on and this informational blog free for everyone. Please click on the links in the articles or to the vendors below if you are purchasing products or DNA testing.

Thank you so much.

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Haplogroups, SNPs and Family Group Confusion

The transition at Family Tree DNA from the old haplogroup naming convention to the new SNP-only naming convention has generated a great deal of confusion.  It’s like surgery – had to be done – but it has been painful.

I’ve received several questions, many that are similar, so I’d like to attempt to resolve some of the confusing points here.

First, just a little background.

Ancient History

Remember, in 2008, when Michael Hammer et al rewrote the Y tree?  If you do, then count yourself as an old-timer.  Names such as R1b1c became R1b1a2.  E3a became E1b1a and E3b became E1b1b1.  We thought we were all going to die.  But we didn’t – and now, if I hadn’t just told you, you wouldn’t even be able to remember the previous name of R1b1a2.

Why did this happen?  Because when you have a step-wise tree where each step is given a number and letter, like this, you have no room for expansion.

R

R1

R1a

R1a1

Each of these haplogroup names is assigned a SNP, and when a new SNP is discovered between R and R1, for example, the name R1 gets assigned to the new SNP and everyone downstream gets renamed and/or a new SNP assigned.  If you think this is confusing, it is and was – terribly so.  In fact, as testimony to this, the last version of the FTDNA tree, the ISOGG tree and the tree used by 23andMe are entirely out of sync with each other.

With the shift from about 800 SNPs to 12,000 SNPs with the Geno2.0 chip, it was definitely time to redo and rethink how haplogroup names are assigned.  What seemed initially like a great idea turned out not to be when the magnitude of the number of SNPs that actually exist was realized.  In reality, they needed to be obsoleted, but the familiar cadence of the letter number path will forever be gone – with the exception of the fact that the SNP is prefaced with the haplogroup name.  We will no longer have our signposts, sadly, but our signposts were becoming overwhelmingly long.  Here’s one example I copied from the ISOGG tree.  R1b1a2a1a1c2b2a1a1b2a1a – seriously – I can’t remember that.

So, today, and forever more, R1b1a2 will be R-M269.  It will not be shifted or “become” anything else.  Moving a SNP to a new location becomes painless, because it will not affect anything upstream or downstream.

However, as you get use to this new beast, you’re going to want to refer to “what something was” before.  You’ll find that articles, papers and who knows what else will refer to the haplogroup name – and you’ll need a conversion reference.

Here’s a link to that reference.  I don’t know about you, but I copied this and created a .pdf file in case this reference disappears – not that that ever happens in the electronic world.

Why the Confusion?

Within projects, men with the same surname now have different haplogroups assigned, and the SNP names look entirely different.  Before, if most of the surname group was R1b1a2, and one person had SNP tested at a deeper level and showed R1b1a2a1a1b4, it was easy to tell by looking that R1b1a2a1a1b4 fell underneath R1b1a2, and was a subclade.  Today, with the new tree, everyone that was R1b1a2 is now shown as R-M269 and the lone R1b1a2a1a1b4 person is shown as R-L21.  You can’t tell by looking if R-L21 is a subclade of R-M269 or the other way around.  And another few SNP tests at different levels into the mix, and you have one confused administrator.

One thing hasn’t changed.  Notice the haplogroup I-M253 individual in the purple group below.  There is a note that their parentage is uncertain.  Given the completely different haplogroup – this individual does not fit into any groups of Estes males biologically.  So completely different haplogroups are still exclusive, meaning you can tell at a glance that these folks do not share a common ancestor, even though their genealogy says that they should.

estes project cropped

Ok, got that now?  Good, because it gets more confusing.

Family Tree DNA did not do a one to one conversion, meaning they did not create a conversion table where R1b1a2=R-M269.  They did an entirely new prediction routine.  This makes sense, because they don’t hard code the haplogroup – it’s fluid and based on either a hard and fast SNP test or a prediction routine. This also allows for easy future improvements, and they utilize 37 markers for haplogroup predictions now instead of just 12, in most cases.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, the prediction routine produces different results for people within the same family group, based on STR marker results and how many STRs are tested.

What this means is that different people in the same family line will have different haplogroup predictions, as you can see in the groups above of individuals all descended from one male, Abraham Estes.

This isn’t wrong, as in incorrect, but it is confusing, especially when you’re used to seeing everyone who has not been SNP tested have a matching haplogroup within families.

Enter the Terminal SNP

The terminal SNP is your SNP that is furthest down the tree based on the SNPs that you have tested.  That second part is really important – based on the SNPs that you have tested.

When you’re looking at your matches, you can see their terminal SNP in the column below to the right, but what you can’t tell is if they have tested for any downstream SNPs and were found negative.

Estes match cropped

For example, if you are tested positive for R-M269 (formerly R1b1a2) and someone else that you match is R-L21, which is downstream of R-M269 – this does not exclude them as valid matches, UNLESS the first R-M269+ gentleman has actually tested for R-L21 and is negative.  You, of course, have no way of knowing this without asking the other participant.

Also, testing “negative” is a bit subjective, because there are known no-calls in the Geno 2.0 results – so if the Geno 2.0 result did not include the terminal haplogroup you expected, and the outcome is truly important to you, meaning family defining – have that defining SNP, if it’s absent in the Geno 2.0 raw data results, tested individually through regular Sanger sequencing – meaning purchase it separately through Family Tree DNA.  A non-positive result in the Geno 2.0 results is typically interpreted to mean negative, but that is not always the case.  In most situations, if everything else matches, meaning surname, STRs and other SNPs, it’s not necessary to test the SNP separately – but it is available if you need to know, positively.

Secondly, the terminal SNP on the new Family Tree DNA haplotree and in your results, if you have taken the Big Y, the Walk Through the Y or purchased individuals SNPs, may be different.  Why, and how would you know?

The why is because Family Tree DNA has synced to the Geno 2.0 tree at this point, and there have been many new SNPs discovered since the Geno 2.0 tree was developed in 2012.  The ISOGG tree is more current, but keep in mind that it is a provisional tree.  However, you still need to have a way to determine your terminal SNP beyond the Geno 2.0 criteria if you have had advanced testing.

There were originally some tools created by individuals to help with this dilemma, but both tools appear to no longer work.  Kitty Cooper blogged about this, and was apparently recently successful, but I was not.  I downloaded the updated version of the Big Y Chromosome extension that I wrote about and was using the Morley tree but that no longer functions either.  Let’s just say that the word frustrated doesn’t even begin to apply….

My suggestion is to work closely with your haplogroup and surname project administrator(s).  Many of the administrators have put together provisional charts and the haplogroup project pages are grouped by SNP groupings with suggestions for additional relevant testing.

The U106 project is a great example of proactive administrators.  Individual participants are clearly categorized and the categories suggest an appropriate “next step.”  Looking at their home page, the administrators make themselves readily available to project members for consulting about how to proceed.

u106 project

Yes, all of this change is a bit fuzzy right now, but give it a bit of time and the fog will clear.  It did in 2008 and we all survived.

Tree Updates

Family Tree DNA has committed to at least one more tree update this year, and let’s hope that it includes all of the SNPs in the reference data base they are using for the Big Y.

I’ll be talking about Big Y comparisons in a future article.

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Disclosure

I receive a small contribution when you click on some of the links to vendors in my articles. This does NOT increase the price you pay but helps me to keep the lights on and this informational blog free for everyone. Please click on the links in the articles or to the vendors below if you are purchasing products or DNA testing.

Thank you so much.

DNA Purchases and Free Transfers

Genealogy Services

Genealogy Research

Ancestry Kit Mixup

Every genealogists worst nightmare.  A DNA kit swap.  You unknowingly receive the results from someone else, and that equally in-the-dark unknown person receives yours.  And you’ll never know unless you recognize the signs and take action to see if it’s your bad luck or overactive imagination, or the answer really is a kit swap or lab error of some sort.

I’ve just spent three months unraveling this exact situation that occurred at Ancestry.com.  The person to whom this happened would like to share her story with you.  We are hoping that if something similar ever happens to you, that you’ll be able to recognize the signs and know what steps to take to figure out if this indeed has occurred.

Let me also say that a kit swap or similar lab error is really quite rare, and in most other instances when people believe their kits have been swapped, they haven’t been, although this certainly is not the first time this has happened.  CeCe Moore reported on another Ancestry.com case in 2012.

We’ll call the lady Jane. Jane’s father agreed to have his Y DNA tested some years ago at Ancestry.com.  Jane submitted his DNA for him and noticed that he had no matches to his rather common surname.  She didn’t really think anything of it at the time, other than being disappointed.  His haplogroup was estimated by Ancestry to be R1b.

As time went on, she ordered Ancestry.com’s autosomal test too for her father.  Ancestry sent another sampling kit, and her father is receiving matches to people who, at least according to their trees, share common ancestors with her father.

Last year, Jane decided to transfer her father’s Y DNA to Family Tree DNA. The markers from Ancestry.com were transferred, and Jane still didn’t have any surname matches at Family Tree DNA.

Jane then ordered the Geno2.0 test for her father.  The results were returned with haplogroup I, terminal SNP I-L22, which were at odds with Ancestry’s haplogroup R1b estimate.

About the same time, Jane upgraded her father’s STR markers as well, and the haplogroup project administrator noticed that while Jane’s father’s lower panels, meaning the ones tested at Ancestry matched haplogroup R1b, his upper panels didn’t match R1b subgroups at all.

Obviously something was wrong, very wrong, someplace.  But what, and where?  Jane contacted me and asked if I would help unravel this puzzle.

I checked Jane’s father’s page at Family Tree DNA, and when she transferred his Geno 2.0 results to his FTDNA page, apparently the transfer confused the software at FTDNA because his results reported both I-L22 and R-M269 as positive, which is impossible since I-L22 is in haplogroup I, only, and R-M269 is only found in haplogroup R.

ancestry kit swap ftdna snps

Unfortunately, this only added to the confusion.

At this point, I downloaded the raw data file from the Geno 2.0 test and verified that indeed, M269 was absent and L22 was present.

ancestry kit swap raw data

Family Tree DNA, thankfully, stepped up to the plate and ran a SNP test on Jane’s father’s second vial.  That SNP test also came back as positive for haplogroup I, matching the Geno 2.0 results.

Just to be absolutely positive, Family Tree DNA sent Jane’s father a third vial and tested the same markers that Jane had transferred from Ancestry.  You can see for yourself – the results are very different.  The results are unquestionable.  Either there was a kit swap or a lab error of some sort at Ancestry where the wrong markers were posted for Jane’s father’s results.  He has been tested three times, from separate vials, at Family Tree DNA with all of the results providing evidence that the Ancestry results were in error.

Marker Ancestry FTDNA
DYS438 12 10
DYS391 10 11
DYS392 13 11
DYS426 12 11
DYS439 13 11
DYS445 12 11
GGAAT1B07 10 11
DYS444 11 12
DYS446 13 13
DYS462 11 13
Y-GATA-A10 13 13
DYS437 15 16
DYS441 14 16
DYS458 17 16
DYS463 24 21
DYS635 23 21
DYS452 30 31

In an overabundance of caution, Family Tree DNA is going to rerun the entire test, all markers and the backbone SNP, from yet another (fourth) new vial being sent to Jane’s father.  Thank heavens Jane’s father is still available for testing and not entirely discouraged.

Jane is ecstatic, because now, she is actually receiving surname matches and in her father’s words, “we just wanted to know who we are.”  And just in time for Father’s Day!

Signs and Signals

How might you know if a kit swap has happened to you?  As we know, Ancestry has discontinued their Y and mitochondrial DNA testing and will be destroying the data base, so this won’t be an issue at Ancestry with new Y DNA kits, but it could be an issue for results already delivered, like Jane’s, and for autosomal tests.  This is one reason why retesting might not be a bad idea, even though the $19 or $58 Y DNA Ancestry to FTDNA transfer price is quite attractive.  Here are some of the signs that might tip you that there is a problem:

  1. If Y DNA, you don’t receive any surname matches, even to those you believe that you are in related to. This is one of those sticky-wickets, because if you don’t match your first cousin, for example, the most likely situation is that you have an undocumented adoption in one of the lines. My suggestion in this situation is to submit an entirely new test under a new kit number. If your first and second kits match each other, then the answer is the undocumented adoption.
  2. If autosomal DNA, and you have no matches to anyone you believe you should match, especially close relatives, submit your DNA to one of the other three testing companies – Family Tree DNA, 23andMe or Ancestry.com. The approach gives you the benefit of fishing in multiple ponds along with verifying that your results match each other. When you receive the results from both companies, download the raw data files from both to www.gedmatch.com and then match them to each other. They should match almost exactly, although there will be some small differences in terms of areas tested and possibly no-calls – but they should match very closely.

Let’s hope this never happens to anyone else.  The sad thing is that whoever, at Ancestry, received Jane’s father’s Y DNA results likely has no idea they are incorrect.

Thank you Family Tree DNA for going above and beyond to resolve this very distressing situation for Jane and her father.

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Disclosure

I receive a small contribution when you click on some of the links to vendors in my articles. This does NOT increase the price you pay but helps me to keep the lights on and this informational blog free for everyone. Please click on the links in the articles or to the vendors below if you are purchasing products or DNA testing.

Thank you so much.

DNA Purchases and Free Transfers

Genealogy Services

Genealogy Research

Marcus Younger (c1740-1816), Mystery Man, 52 Ancestors #23

The Younger story starts with Marcus Younger.  It shouldn’t but it does, because we don’t know who his parents were.  We may never know, because Marcus Younger’s Y chromosomal, paternal, DNA doesn’t match the rest of the Younger line to whom he is obviously related.  Why obviously?  You’ll see.  This story reminds me a bit of a soap opera and an onion – unpeeling one layer at a time – slowly and painfully over the past 20 years or so.

In 2007, I began the Younger DNA project.  I fully expected Marcus’s descendants to match on the Y chromosome to the descendants of Thomas Younger, a man who lived very close to Marcus in Halifax County and who many believed was Marcus’s father.  Even if he wasn’t Marcus’s father, the he was likely his uncle.  One thing is for sure – we fully expected them to descend from a common paternal male line – but we were wrong.

Not only did the men not match, there is no possibility on their Y (paternal) line that they are distantly related.  In other words, this isn’t a questionable match, it’s a flat out no-match.  They are in different haplogroups, with Thomas’s line being in haplogroup R and Marcus’s line in haplogroup I.  These men’s paternal ancestors weren’t related in 10s of thousands of years.  Well, that was a “stop me in my tracks” revelation.  So now what?

So let’s start with Marcus and tell as much of our Younger story as we know.  We have made some remarkable breakthroughs recently, compliments of autosomal DNA technology.

Marcus Younger

Marcus Younger was born probably in Essex County, VA and probably around 1730, based on his son’s 1760 birth.  He died in January 1815 in Halifax County, Virginia.  He married Susannah, possibly Hart.  Anthony Hart sold land to Marcus Younger before he moved to Halifax County.  Marcus was also taxed under Anthony.  We don’t know who Marcus’s parents are, but given recent autosomal DNA evidence, we suspect that he was the illegitimate son of a daughter of Alexander Younger and Rebecca Mills.  Alexander Younger mentions no son, Marcus, in his will.  Alexander’s son, Thomas Younger, moved to Halifax County earlier than Marcus who arrived about 1785.  They lived close to each other, Thomas on Terrible Creek and Marcus on Yellow Bank Creek on the Banister River.  Thomas died in 1791 and his will was witnessed by both Marcus and Marcus’s son, John Younger.  This implies strongly that Marcus was not Thomas’s heir, as heirs typically did not witness wills.  It also suggests that they were very close.

In 1780, Marcus Younger aided in the American Revolution in King and Queen County as documented by the Public Service Claims. He provided 1 gallon, 2 quarts and a half brandy worth 39 pounds, 1 shilling and 3 pence.  He probably didn’t have any choice about this, because then the army needed (or wanted) supplies, it needed supplies.  They gave you a receipt with the idea that someday you could turn it in for reimbursement.  In actuality, people did that, which is why we have the records today.  He’s lucky that’s all they took.  They were known for impressing horses, but then again, maybe Marcus didn’t have a horse to impress.

Marcus was in Essex County in 1782 and 1785, taxed under Anthony Hart, but is in Halifax County by December 1786 when he signs the marriage bond for his daughter, Mary, to marry George Estes, suggesting she is under the age of 21.

Interestingly enough, George Estes’s father, Moses Estes lived beside William Younger, born about 1740, wife Patience, whose parentage is also unknown.  William Younger is in Halifax County as early as 1760 when he was assigned to a road crew on Reedy Creek. He apparently lived on Reedy Creek in South Boston for the rest of his life.  Reedy Creek abutted the land purchased by Moses Estes Jr. and today Younger Street is the street that runs perpendicular to Estes Street, both of which now lead to the city dump, and is no place remotely close to Terrible Creek or the Banister River.

In 1795, Moses Estes, George Estes, his son who married Mary Younger in 1786, and William Younger, neighbors, all signed a petition.

estes younger glebe petition

I have always wondered if there is a previous pre-Halifax County connection between the William Younger and Moses Estes families.  I have often suspected that Moses Estes Sr. had daughters who would have been the perfect age to have been Patience, the wife of William Younger.  Conversely, we don’t know who the wife of Moses Estes Sr. was, only that her name was Elizabeth.

Regardless, these two families owned land that is very close to each other on the border of Essex and King and Queen Counties in northern Virginia prior to coming to Halifax County.  This is detailed in the unpublished document, “Estes of King and Queen County.”  An excerpt is provided below.

King and Queen and Essex County, Virginia

Using various hints, tips and what few records do still exist, we were able to locate fairly reliably the land of Abraham Estes, the original immigrant in the Estes line.  As luck would have it, we also discovered the Younger holdings in that area as well.

My cousin Wilma, long time Younger genealogist, posted the following information on the Younger rootsweb list in 2002.

Recently I have come into possession of a map which was the project of a Woman’s Club started in 1937 and published in 1972. It attempts to located the early tracts of King and Queen County. Unfortunately some very significant pieces of the map were omitted. I’m referring to the various hundreds and parishes which would better pinpoint a known location.

That said, I studied the map first, for familiar names. I found the name Boulware not far from Caroline County. Many of you will remember that a Boulware was a business associate of John Younger (from Whitehaven, England) in Caroline County which adjoins King and Queen directly to the north. A Boulware also married the daughter of John Price and Ann Younger, daughter of Alexander. [Note: Alexander is the proven father of Thomas Younger who moved to Halifax County.]

The next name is a little more disconnected but it caught my attention.  The name of the property was Fleetwell. Thomas Younger’s daughter by his first wife married a Fretwell and her father (apparently) was prominent in transferring property to Thomas. This Fleetwell certainly may have no relevance but, as I said, it did catch my eye.

Then there was Armistead Hill. Now we all can agree that Armistead is not a very common given name but it has been repeated throughout the Virginia family. I cannot say for sure but I suspect this piece of property was not far from Alexander’s in Essex and King and Queen (to be explained below).

I also noted the name Aylett and remembered having seen it before. I checked Alexander Younger’s notes and found that in 1716 a Robert Farish of St. Stephen’s Parish, King and Queen County bought 100 acres lying in both Essex and King and Queen Counties upon the head of the Dragon. The land adjoined Maj. Aylett’s Quarter and also adjoined the land of Alexander Younger.

I had thought Alexander Younger’s son Thomas had left Essex County (perhaps in anger that his mother had remarried so soon) and had gone to King and Queen. He was known to be in King and Queen County in 1751/2.  [Note – based on a merchant’s account book.] Thomas Younger sold his property to his mother and step-father and it was noted that the property he sold was adjoined by John Farish and Capt. William Aylett.

The man I believe to be the father in law of Thomas Younger, (William Fretwell) obtained the property in question from the mother and stepfather and resold it to Thomas Younger.

No record of any other purchase by Thomas Younger has as yet come to light so one can assume (I hope) that half of the land left to Susannah by her father Thomas was the same described property. The other half was willed to Samuel also without a description. The subsequent lawsuit among the heirs did not deal in property but delineated money instead.

This little exercise put things a bit into perspective for me. It is amazing somehow that maps can be so enlightening – even incomplete ones.

I now suspect that the Younger’s lived fairly close to the border between Essex and King and Queen Counties and being located at or near the head of the Dragon, they were also not terribly far from Middlesex County which accounts for some of the Younger records there.

I took Wilma’s information and ran with it and in doing so, using contemporary maps, I located the approximate location of both the Estes and the Younger land.

Abraham Estes’s land in 1783 abuts the Hoskins and Grymes land.  Today this marker resides on 360 East of St. Stephen’s Church.

estes essex map

Going with the info from the various locations to my trusty atlas, I find that in King and Queen County, on 360 where it crosses 14 and then East on 360 from that location, we have an intersection with 631 and 621 before getting to Miller’s Tavern.  Miller’s Tavern is too far East,  It looks like this land is between Bruington which is at the intersection of 14 and 621 as one point on the triangle, 621 itself as another point on the triangle, and probably St. Stephen’s church as another point.  You also see Dogwood Fork which surely is connected to Dogwood swamp.  Abraham Estes’s land seemed to be on the NE quadrant of this land, so probably nearer to 621.  In a much larger sense, it’s between the Rappahannock and the Mattaponi, but nearer to the Mattaponi.

Essex County Land Grants

June 22 1722 – Grant of Robert Farish described as 775 acres in the Counties of King and Queen and Essex. Beg. of Silvester Estice standing in Thomas Cranes line; thence &c. on the south side a branch of Mattapony River. And then 775 acres in the Counties of King and Queen and Essex adjoining the land of Silvester Estice, Thos. Crane &c. on the south side of a branch of Mattapony River and crossing several branches of Rappa: River.

Here are 3 transactions that position Alexander Younger’s land in this same area:

Essex County Deed Book 22 (1738-1742), Pg 215
3 Dec 1740

Thomas Younger of St Stephen’s Parish, King and Queen County, VA to Timothy Driscoll [sic] of Southfarnham Parish, Essex County VA for 5000 lbs of tobacco and cash, all interest now or hereafter in 100 acres in Essex in the Parish of Southfarnum adjoining John Farish, Capt. William Aylett and John Croxton it being all that tract purchased by his father, Alexander Younger, dec’d of Richard Jones and Leonard Hill

Witnesses – Thomas Barker, John Croxton, Henry Brown
Acknowledged 17 Mar 1740 at a court held for Essex County at Tappahannock

3 Dec 1740

Know All Men by these presents that I Thomas Younger of King and Queen County stand indebted to Timothy Driscoll in the sum of ten thousand pounds of good tobacco and cash. The condition of the above obligation is such that Thomas Younger at all times upon request of Timothy Driscoll  his heirs sufficiently grant all that parcel of land now in the tenure of Timothy Driscoll clearly aquitted and discharged from all manner of former bargains and incumberances whatsoever done by Thomas Younger then this obligation to be void otherwise to remain in force.

Signed: Thomas Younger
Witnesses: John Croxton, Henry Brown

Then received the full sum of thirty pounds current money, it being the full consideration.

Essex County VA Deed Book 24, Pg 354 and Virginia Colonial Abstracts, p.353
10 Aug 1749

William Fretwell of Southfarnham Parish, Essex County VA to Thomas Younger of Drisdale Parish in County of King and Queen County for 30 pounds, all interest now or hereafter in 100 acres in Essex, purchased of Thomas Younger by Timothy Driscoll and by him conveyed to William Fretwell

Signed: William Fretwell
Witnesses – Thomas Barker, Richard Hodges
Acknowledged 19 Sep 1749.

Another set of records that involved Thomas Younger also positions this family on the Mattaponi.

Thomas Younger was still living in King and Queen County in 1751-1752. (King and Queen Merchants Ledger 1751-1752. Accession #25110, Virginia State Library, Pg. 49).  He made purchased in both 1751 and 1752.

Thomas Younger Mar 1751
Thomas Younger July  1752

An Index – Magazine of Virginia genealogy, Vol 29, Number 3, Aug 1991

The King and Queen County merchant’s account book has been abstracted and is identified in the Virginia State Archives by Accession number 28893.

Ledger A covers 25 Feb 1748-21 May 1750 and the unpaid accounts on the latter were transferred to Ledger B as opening balances. Ledger B covers 23 May 1750 to 16 Mar 1751. Balances on 16 Mar 1751 were transferred to Ledger C which covers 19 Mar 1751-4 Aug 1752. These ledgers came from the store of Nininan Boog, factor for Buchannan and Hamilton, Liverpool Merchants. Boog’s King and Queen store was apparently located at Todd’s on the Mataponi about a mile above Aylett where state route 628 now ends.

Name                              A                                    B                               C

Thomas Younger           68                                 104                              49

Alexander Younger in America

We know very little about the origins of Alexander Younger before his arrival in Virginia.  There is a parish register entry in Lanark, Glasgow, Scotland showing an Alexander Younger christened on May 2, 1681.  We don’t know if that record is for our Alexander, but it could be, especially given the 1699 court record which indicates his age as 18 years of age.

There are at least four possibilities for his importation records which begs the question of what happened to these other Alexander Youngers.

1. Old Rappahanock County, VA Order Book 2 1698-1699, Pg 148

10 June 1699 – Deposition – Alexander Younge (r), a servant of Edward Rowzee, said to be eighteen years old.

2.  General Index to Court Orders, Essex County VA 1684-1714

11 Oct 1704 – An Alexander Younger imported by Thomas Dickinson 0-3-124

10 May 1705 – An Alexander Younger imported by Ralph Rowze 0-3-164

Considering that Alexander was a servant in a Rowze household it seems plausible that he immigrated in 1705.

These first two records cause me to wonder if Alexander went back and forth a couple of times.  That was not unheard of, especially if he was the personal servant to a wealthy man.

We do know that Alexander Younger wrote his will in 1725, designating his wife and son, Thomas to be his executors.  His son would have had to have been born very shortly after his arrival.  If Alexander was a indentured servant, it’s unlikely that he would have been allowed to marry for the requisite 5 or 7 years to complete his indenture.  This record says he is a servant, but it does not say that he is indentured, but it certainly does imply that he is.

3.  From angelsmurfholly2@aol.com on Genforum under the Younger forum:

Alexander received 100 acres of land for transporting himself and his servants, James Morrison, to Somerset Co., Maryland.  He later signed it over to Henry Bishop, a planter from Maryland.  From G. Spades “The Early Settlers of Maryland”.  Alexander came to York Co., VA in 1680.  As per Virginia Colonial abstract #9.  Essex Co. will and deeds of 1714-1717 Alexander Younger was sold 100 acres of land for 3250 pounds of tobacco in the Parish of Southfarnham, Essex Co. Record Book 15 page 359.

I question whether the records above are for the same person.  We know that “our” Alexander was in Essex County, but I would like to see some documentation that ties the Maryland Alexander Younger with ours in Essex County, VA.

Alexander witnessed wills in both 1706 and 1707, suggesting that he was not an indentured servant at that time.

Virginia Colonial Abstracts, p. 155 (Essex County)

Will of Richard Matthews of Essex County
Written 12 Jan 1705/6, Pro 11 Feb 1705/6

To eldest son Richard a Bible. To youngest son Giles and daughter Elizabeth. the balance of  the estate for their maintenance. To  Ann a cow.

Exec. John Boulware, John Mottlin
Witnesses: John X Williams, Robert Parker, Alexander Younger

Essex County VA Records, Abstracted by John Frederick Dorman,

p. 36,37 – 18 Jan 1707 – Will of Daniel Browne of Essex County VA witnessed by Alexander Younger

p. 224 – Jean Browne wife of the deceased Daniel Browne, Sr. of Southfarnum Parish gave her interest in her 1/3rd to son Henry.

Witnessed by Alexander Younger

4.  General Index to Court Orders, Essex County VA 1684-1714

10 Aug 1708 – Alexander Younger grants 50 acres of land for his own importation 0-4-47 – 10 Sep 1708

This record actually suggests that Alexander Younger was not indentured, as the person who paid for his transportation would have been the person to claim his 50 acres.  However, if the land were part of his agreement, and he arrived in 1799, and was indentured for 7 years, he would have been freed in 1706, in time to witness the 1706 will.

Alexander Younger’s Land

Records show that in 1715, Alexander Younger purchased 220 acres of land in South Farnham Parish, Essex County, VA (Virginia Colonial Abstracts #9, pp. 319-320, Essex County VA Wills and Deeds Bk 14, p 359)

By 1716, Alexander had land and we know where it was, near the head of the Dragon Branches.

Records of Essex Co, VA, No 15, p. 1
18 and 19 Mar 1716

Deed and Release

Casper Coston, smith, and Mary his wife, of St Anne’s Parish, Essex Co, sell to Robert Farish of St Stephen’s Parish, King and Queen Co, for 48 pounds, 250a, part of 100a granted to Richard Jones and George Turner, 8 Feb 1672, lying in Essex and King and Queen Counties, upon the heads of the Dragon, Ashnamscot and Piscatua branches adj a marsh at the head of one of the Dragon branches, by Maj. Aylett  the Quarter formerly known as Goodrich’s land, the land of Sheffells old field, Alexander’s house and the head of a branch of Fisher’s mill. Also Capt Brerton’s land “descending to me Mary Coston as being heir at law to my only sister Sarah Shipley, late dec’d, which was left by will of George Boyce to my sd sister, (adj land of Major Aylets Quarter formerly known by the name of Goodrich land, and also adjoining the land of Alexander Younger. Also Capt Brereton’ land)

Witnesses: John Bates, John Boughan, Thomas X Shipley

(Extracted from Virginia Colonial Abstracts, Vol II, Beverly Fleet, Genealogical Publishing Company, Baltimore, MD, 1988, p.83) SW: Sheffield

This is apparently Mary Cosston, sister of Keziah. The second entry of this record on p. 179 of this same source states Jasper Coston, not Casper, Goodrick, not Goodrich. Third record on p. 296 (filed under King and Queen Co) states “the head of Kissells old field, Alexander Youngers house, branch of Fishers mill, etc.” George Boyce record not yet located.

By 1725, Alexander had died, fairly young, and with young children.  His son John died in 1733 and Alexander’s estate funds were used to bury John as well.  In 1732, his 3 youngest daughters were still under age and Thomas was appointed their guardians.

Alexander was impaneled as a juror several times.  But then, in 1724, it was his turn to face the jury.

Essex County VA Order Book 1723-1725, p. 107 – 19 Mar 1723

The suit brought by John Bagge against Alexander Younger is dismissed.

p. 138 – 20 May 1724

Alexander Younger of the Parish of South Farnham for not frequenting his Parish Church according to Law.  Presented by the Grand Jury and therefore ordered the Sheriff to summon all said persons to appear at the next court for this County to show cause if any they have why they should not be fined according to Law.

p 161, 17 June 1724

The presentment of the Grand Jury agt. Alexander Younger is dismissed.

The 1724 presentment against Alexander for not attending church was dismissed.  Obviously, he wasn’t attending.  The question is why.  Given that he made his will in 1725, it causes me to wonder if he wasn’t ill by 1724 and not attending church for that reason.

p. 167, 17 Jun 1724

In the action on the case brought by Nathaniel Sanders against John Griggs it is ordered that James Edmondson, Alexander Younger and John Haile or any two of them audit and settle the accounts between the plaintiff and the defendant. and make their report to the next court.

Given this court order, Alexander must not have been ill at this time.

p. 172 – 18 Jun 1724

The action of debt brought by John Bagge vs Alexander Younger is continued. The Plaintiff’s Attorney being absent.

On July 18, 1727, Alexander’s will was probated.  He would have been less than 50 years old.

Essex County Wills, Bonds and Inventories, Part 2, pg 222 1722-1730

Will Book 4, pp 222-223
Written 11 Aug 1725, Probated 18 Jul 1727
Virginia State Library

IN THE NAME OF GOD, AMEN…The eleventh day of Aug 1725, I, Alexander Younger of the County of Essex, being sick and weak of body yet in perfect sense and memory thanks be to God for the same I do make and constitute ordain and declare this to be my last will and testament and no other first being point out and sorry from the bottom of my heart for all my sins past most humble begging God forgiveness and remission of the same through the alone merits of my dear redeemer and only savior, Jesus Christ. I commit my soul into the hand of Almighty God, my savior and only redeemer through the merit of whose death and passion I hope to have full and perfect remission and forgiveness of all my sins. My body to be decently interred by my executors hereafter named in hopes of a happy resurrection at the last day and my soul and body to enter into perfect joy and felicity forevermore. And for the settling and disposing my temporal and such goods and chattels as it hath pleased God to bestow upon me I do order give and dispose as follows, that is to say, first all those debts and duties as I owe in right or custom to any person whatsoever shall be well and truly contented and paid within convenient time after my decease by my executors hereafter named. First I will and bequeath to the three poorest objects of pity in the parish thirty shillings in such things as may answer their wants to be paid within one year after my decease by my executors.

Secondly I will and bequeath to my son Thomas Younger that piece of land that I bought of Mr. Hill and Richard Jones, a young heifer called Fairmade and her female increase and if she happens to be barren and not a breeder then to have a young cow out of my own proper stock of chattels and if she should die then to have another young cow in her room out of my own proper stock and six pounds currency and that gun which I bought of Captain Welch.

Thirdly I will and bequeath to my son John Younger that piece of land which I bought of Mary Newton, two young cows out of my proper stock, six pound currency and his choice of my other two guns.

If either of my two sons Thomas or John die without issue then their land, money and gun to fall to the eldest female then alive only my will is that the child in whose hands any of the boy’s land falls to, the other part of

their estate shall be equally divide among the rest then alive. They themselves that have the land having one equal part thereof. It is my will that the two eldest then alive of the female kind if the male be all dead should inherit the land. Also my will is that after appraisement made that my estate be equally divided among my other six children to wit: James Younger, Elizabeth Younger, Ann Younger, Mary Younger, Jannett Younger, and Susannah Younger, and further it is my will that if any one of them died without issue lawfully begotten of their body that their part be equally divided among the rest then alive and it is my will concerning every one of my children’s parts of the estate if they die without issue lawfully begotten of their body to be still equally divided among the rest then alive and further it is my will that if my well beloved wife, Rebecca Younger, should happen to join in wedlock state after my decease it is my will that the boys should be for themselves at the age of seventeen years old and if she continues my widow then to remain till the year of twenty one and if it should please God to whom all things are subject to remove all my issue by death then it is my will that my land and personal estate be secured for my next heir in Scotland of my brother Andrew’s only wife to have the liberty of the same all her days in a moderate way to live upon without control of any person whatsoever.

The executors whom I order and appoint is my well beloved wife Rebecca Younger and my son Thomas Younger to see the same truly appointed and fully performed. In witness whereof I have affixed my seal and set my hand the day and year first above written.

Signed: Alexander Younger
Witnesses: John Haile, Bryant Edmondson, Francis Haile (his mark)

At a court for Essex County on Tuesday the 18th of July 1727, the within last will and testament of Alexander Younger, dec’d, was proved by the oath of Rebecca Younger, his executrix and being further proved by the oath of John Haile and Bryant Edmondson, two of the witnesses thereto was admitted to record.

Signed W. Beverly, C.C.

18 Jul 1727

Bond of Rebecca Younger as Executrix of Alexander Younger. Unto William Dangerfield, Benjamin Robinson, John Taliaferro and Nicholas Smith, Gent., Justices. For L 300 sterling

Securities: Thomas Covington and Richard Jones

It is ordered that James Edmondson, Henry Boughan, John Haile and William Gatewood or any three of them appraise the estate of Alexander Younger, dec’d and return their proceedings therein to the next court.

Appraisers were typically the largest debtor, someone from the wife’s family and a totally disinterested party.

Essex County VA Will Book 5, p. 152,153 – 1727

Account for the administration of the estate of Alexander Younger

This account provides the information that by later in 1727, Alexander’s son John has died, his daughter Elizabeth has married John Dillard and the widow Rebecca has remarried Timothy Driscoll, although it is odd that she signs her name as Rebecca Younger on this document.  Actually, she signed with a mark so maybe the clerk wrote her name as Rebecca Younger instead of her new married name.  The only reason Timothy Driscoll would sign this is if he had an interest and his only interest would be as her husband.

Essex County VA Court Wills #5
1727

Total Valuation L 157.12.10 including one Negro man valued at 25 pounds.

The estate of Mr. Alexander Younger, dec’d

  • To funeral expenses for Mr. Younger
  • To Dr. John Haile
  • To John Leach a legacy left by Mr. Younger
  • To Thomas Barber for sundry writing for the estate
  • To John Taylor (no reason given)
  • To Pitman Grandoff (no reason given)
  • To the appraisers of the estate (not named)
  • To the probate of Mr. Younger’s will
  • To Mr. ? Carter
  • To registering the death of the sd Younger
  • To registering the death of a negro
  • To registering the death of John Younger
  • To rolling Mr. Younger’s tobacco
  • To tobacco charged in the inventory due in his lifetime not received by the executors
  • To tobacco charged for clerks, secretarys and parsons
  • To John Dillard for his wife’s part of the estate being 1/8 of 127 pounds, 13 shillings, 4 1/2 pence.

Signed Timothy Driscoll (his mark)

Rebecca Younger (R)

At a court convened and held for Essex County on 22 Aug 1833

Timothy Driscoll and Rebecca, his wife, Executors of the last will and testament of Alexander Younger, dec’d produced their vouchers and made oath that this was a just and true account of the sd deceased estate and all the articles therein being allowed by this court, on the motion of Timothy the same is admitted to record.

Essex County VA Will Book 5: 119,120
15 Jan 1732

Thomas Younger made guardian of Mary and Ann, infant orphans of Alexander Younger, dec’d. Samuel Gatewood and John Ferguson were bondsmen with Thomas. The document continues to reveal that he is also guardian to James Younger.

Essex County VA Will Book 5: 115,116
19Dec 1732

Thomas Younger made guardian of James, Jannett and Susannah stating that they are orphans

I have to wonder why he was not appointed prior to this time.  His father has been dead since 1727.  Marcus was born sometime prior to 1740, likely to one of these sisters.  I thought at one time that perhaps his mother died at this time, but according to later deeds, she did not.  Something clearly happened during this time to precipitate this legal action.  But what?

Essex County Deed Book 22 (1738-1742), Pg 215
3 Dec 1740

Thomas Younger of St Stephen’s Parish, King and Queen County, VA to Timothy Driscoll [sic] of Southfarnham Parish, Essex County VA for 5000 lbs of tobacco and cash, all interest now or hereafter in 100 acres in Essex in the Parish of Southfarnum adjoining John Farish, Capt. William Aylett and John Croxton it being all that tract purchased by his father, Alexander Younger, dec’d of Richard Jones and Leonard Hill

Witnesses – Thomas Barker, John Croxton, Henry Brown
Acknowledged 17 Mar 1740 at a court held for Essex County at Tappahannock

3 Dec 1740

Know All Men by these presents that I Thomas Younger of King and Queen County stand indebted to Timothy Driscoll in the sum of ten thousand pounds of good tobacco and cash. The condition of the above obligation is such that Thomas Younger at all times upon request of Timothy Driscoll his heirs sufficiently grant all that parcel of land now in the tenure of Timothy Driscoll clearly aquitted and discharged from all manner of former bargains and incumberances whatsoever done by Thomas Younger then this obligation to be void otherwise to remain in force.

Signed: Thomas Younger
Witnesses: John Croxton, Henry Brown

Then received the full sum of thirty pounds current money, it being the full consideration.

Essex County VA Deed Book 24, Pg 354 and Virginia Colonial Abstracts, p.353  10 Aug 1749

William Fretwell of Southfarnham Parish, Essex County VA to Thomas Younger of Drisdale Parish in County of King and Queen County for 30 pounds, all interest now or hereafter in 100 acres in Essex, purchased of Thomas Younger by Timothy Driscoll and by him conveyed to William Fretwell

Signed: William Fretwell
Witnesses – Thomas Barker, Richard Hodges
Acknowledged 19 Sep 1749.

There are no records in subsequent Deed Books of Essex County, VA of Thomas Younger selling this land. There are no tax records of Essex County until 1782. It is also known by probate records that William Fretwell was the son-in-law of Thomas Younger.

Unfortunately, the records of King and Queen County have been burned, so while there were very likely more records that pertain to Thomas, they were destroyed.  The next time we see Thomas after the 1751/1752 merchant’s account record is in 1765 in Halifax County.

Essex County, Virginia, Summary

The deeds and land transactions tell us that the Estes and Younger families probably knew each other long before they came to Halifax Co.  Notice below that the head of Dragon Run is almost exactly on the county border between King and Queen and Essex county which is highlighted in yellow.  The purple arrow is pointing to this general area, but slightly on the Essex side.  The Younger’s lived on the Essex side and the Estes lived just across the road, right about where the “620” is printed on the way south from Miller’s tavern.

Younger essex co map

It is exceedingly frustrating for me not to be able to connect our Marcus Younger back to his father.  There were other early Younger men who also came to Halifax County, like William Younger.  Were they also from Essex county?  Was our Marcus related to them?  He was clearly associated very closely with all of the Youngers of that time in Halifax County, as they witnessed deeds and such for each other and the Estes family.  Marcus and Thomas Younger were neighbors, as were William Younger and Moses Estes Jr.

Given the DNA results, Marcus did not share a paternal line with Thomas Younger or James Younger, both sons of Alexander Younger and Rebecca Mills.  The Y DNA of Thomas and James descendants matches each other, but Marcus’s Y chromosome does not, and one of the people (Seay) he matches closely also doesn’t match the DNA of his surname family.  The Marcus Younger line also matches one single Rolland male.

Halifax County, Virginia Younger Families

The Halifax County research had two goals.  One, to piece the various Younger families together, learning and much as possible about them and second, to find the land and cemetery where Marcus Younger lived.

The following information is extracted from the deed, will, court order, and chancery suits and is combined with census and tax list information in order to assemble families.  This is not intended to be exhaustive, but to provide an overview in summary form of the results of the research in Halifax.  I have removed almost all of the detail for the Thomas and William Younger families, leaving only what might be relevant for Marcus.

In a nutshell, we have connected all of the early families into three distinct groups that apparently do not connect together in Halifax, meaning they are not father-son groupings.  They may well be otherwise related, but we just don’t know yet.

Ironically, it was neither William, Marcus nor Thomas who first appeared in Halifax County, but  James Younger in 1758 who is mentioned as providing blacksmith services in the estate management for the children in the estate of Capt. James Hill.  Halifax Will Book 0-46.  This James never reappears.  Two years later, William Younger followed.  In 1765 Thomas Younger arrived. Marcus doesn’t appear in any records until 1785.

Marcus Younger, born before 1740, died 1815, wife Susannah

Halifax County records for Marcus Younger begin in 1785.

1785 – Markus Younger is listed on the tax list with 1 white, 1 slave, no horses and 2 cows.

1785 – Marcus Younger is listed on Berryman Green’s list with 1 white tithe, 2 slaves and 1 horse.  A different records show him with 1 white, 1 slave, no horses and 2 cows.

1785 – John Younger, son of Marcus, is listed with 1 white, no slaves, no horses and 2 cows.

1786 – On December 19, Mary Younger marries George Estes, her father Marcus Younger and George Estes sign, William Martin is a witness and Daniel Parker is surety.

estes younger marriage

George signs his marriage bond, above.  Below, Marcus signs for Mary to marry George.

Younger marcus signature

1787 – Markus Younger on the tax list shows 1 white, 2 slaves, 3 horses and 2 cows.

1787 – John Younger on the tax list shows 1 white, 1 slave, 3 horses and 6 cows.

1788 – Halifax County VA Deed Book 14, Pg. 276

7 Mar 1788 Mark Younger from Meador Anderson and wife Sarah
100 acres on Branch of the Bannister River

1788 – Halifax County VA Deed Book 14, Pg. 281
7 Mar 1788
John Younger from Meador Anderson and wife Sarah
100 acres on Branch of the Bannister River for 60 pounds.
(John is the son of Marcus)

1788 – Tax list Markus Younger 1 white, 0 slaves and 3 horses.

1788 – Tax list John Younger 1 white, 1 black, 3 horses.

1789 – Marcus witnessed the will of Thomas Younger and also was on the tax list with 100 acres and tithed with one white male, no slaves and 2 horses.

1790 – Marcus Younger has 100 acres every year until 1814 when his land drops to 93.5 acres and then in 1815 to 43.5 acres and is then noted as a life estate instead of held in fee simple.  This would be his daughter’s share, I would think.  Marcus has no slaves until 1794 when he has 3, then none in1795, 1 in 1796  and each year until he acquires a second slave in 1800 and has 2 until his death.  He has no horses in 1790, but acquires 2 in 1796 and then has 4 in 1802, dropping back to 2 in 1809 and 1 in 1810.

1790 – Marcus’s son John Younger has 100 acres and maintains that land until 1812 when he adds another 3.5 acres from his father.  He has one slave until 1794 when he acquires a second and has two throughout the record period until 1817.

1795 – John Younger, road hand along with George Estes.

Note:  This road hand assignment confirms that George and Mary Younger Estes indeed were living in the north part of the county, probably on the Marcus Younger land.  Given this, the Marcus Younger farm is probably where John R. Estes, their son and also my ancestor, born in 1787/1788 was born.  There are also several spaces for children “missing” who would have been born in the 1790s, nor were any children named after George’s parents, Moses and Luremia.  I suspect those children are buried in the cemetery on Marcus’s land.

1799 – Marcus Younger is listed as a road hand.

1799 – John Younger is listed as a road hand on Terrible Creek along with George Estes.

Note:  Further confirmation that George and Mary Estes Younger were living among the Youngers as late as 1799.

1805 – Marcus wrote his will, but he did not pass away until 10 years later, in 1815.  Generally in this timeframe in Virginia, people did not write a will until they thought they were going to pass away, so he must have had a scare 10 years before he died.

1810 – Halifax County Tax list.  Marcus is taxed with 2 whites, meaning two adult white men, George Estes is not listed on the tax list, which means he was taxed under someone else, and Moses Estes, George’s father, is only taxed with one white male.  George and Mary Estes Younger are very likely living with Marcus Younger.

1811 –  Halifax County VA Deed Book 23, Pg.197
20 May 1811
Mark Younger to John Younger
6 1/2 acres on Bannister River adjoining Younger’s land.
Witnesses: Benjamin and William Landrum, James Powers

Marcus’ will, written 23 Jun 1805, Probated 25 Jan 1815:

To daughter Susannah 50 acres of land where my house stands during her natural life. Also one Negro girl (Fanny), one mare, one bed, and furniture, one cow and calf.  To grandson Younger Wyatt one mare.   The rest of my estate to be equally divided among my four children namely, John Younger, Elizabeth Clark, Mary Estes and Susannah Younger together with my forenamed grandson Younger Wyatt.

Marcus and Susannah Younger’s children:

  • John born April 11, 1760 in Essex County, married Lucy Hart, had 9 children, inherited his father’s land and lived in Halifax County. His son Joel owned the Younger land after John’s death in 1817 as well as the old Younger store. John’s land is where the cemetery is today.
  • Elizabeth married William Clark, had 5 children, but was dead by March 1816.
  • Mary Younger married George Estes in 1786 and died after her sister Susannah in 1831, but before 1842.
  • Sally Younger married a Wyatt and had Younger Wyatt. She was probably deceased by 1805.
  • Susannah apparently never married and died about 1831. She had a will and in her will she left her clothes to her sister Mary Estes and Mary Wyatt, and then she freed her negroes Fanny and Henry “to be released and given $15”. Fifteen dollars at that time was a significant amount of money.       Susannah had inherited Fanny when Fanny was a child when Marcus died in 1815. By 1831, Fanny had presumably married Henry, or perhaps Henry was her son. Neither a Fanny nor Henry Younger are found in the Halifax County region in either 1840 or 1850.

Page 568 July 1815

Land of Marcus Younger (heirs listed) decd to John Younger with agreement of all parties to make survey to Susannah Younger who becomes entitled to the part allocated her under the will of Marcus, tract on the draught of Bannister River beginning at a post on John Younger’s line.

1816 – Marcus Younger’s estate was inventoried.  Slaves Joshua, Harry (boy), Phoebe, Ceily (girl), Jacob (boy), Ben (boy), Sampson (boy), Dicey (girl), mare and sorrel colt, Fanny given by will to Susannah Younger, cow, 3 feather beds and furniture also to Susannah, one yoke oxen, cow, cow and yearling, yearling, one stack tops, two clade stacks, two vat stack, cart, 2 ploying, panel of plank, 2 head sheep, 3 fatted hogs, 1 cutting box, parcel of nubings.

I love estate inventories because they tell us so much about what the person did, and didn’t, have.  This man was not wealthy by any stretch, but with three feather beds and 8 slaves, although several were children, he also wasn’t a pauper.  The slave records hurt my heart and make me sad.  I hope they were considered part of the family.

In 1816, Marcus’s estate transferred 62 acres on Banister Creek.  Deed Book 25-568.

1816 – Susannah Younger’s land laid off.  Susanna Younger, Younger and Polly Wyatt, Thomas and Peggy Clark, William Clark, John and Sarah Henderson, Edmund and Elizabeth Henderson, John and Polly Landrum and George and Mary Estes to John Younger – prompt distribution of Marcus Younger, decd – survey to Susanna Younger part allocated to her under will of Marcus, land sold for 12 months credit $420.60 on the draughts of Banister 62 acres bounded by John Younger line, Bruce’s line, Sights corner, Susanna Younger laying off allotment of land he bequeathed her.  Halifax Deed Book 25-568

1817 – Halifax County VA Deed Book 26. Pg. 572
16 Jul 1817
John Younger, Sr. and wife Lucy to Thomas P. Anderson
107 acres on the head of Yellow Bank Branch for $700
Witnesses: Anthony Younger, George Estes, John Younger and James Bruce

1817 – Will: Halifax County Will Book 11, Pg 50 – John Younger (son of Marcus)
Written 17 Jul 1817, Probated 29 Oct 1817

Names wife Lucy – tract she lives on, furniture, stock,  all my Negroes
Children:

  • John Younger – $500 to be raised by executors 12 months after my decease
  • Elizabeth, wife of Thomas P. Anderson – $500
  • Joel Younger – 170 acres adjoining Thomas Anderson
  • Anthony Younger – 100 acres  on Big Creek on which he resides lying on the waters of Rye Creek (Bye Ck)
  • Thomas Younger- land lent to his mother after her death or marriage
  • Robert Younger – land previously given as his share (100 acres north side of Bye Creek apparently)
  • Sally, wife of Joel Anderson – $500  beds, furniture & bridles
  • Polly – $250 for each of her children
  • Nancy – $500 beds, furniture, horses $ bridles
  • Polly & children – $125 ea; Bazoil and Betsy P. Ray – 1/2 land she lives on, the children, the other half

Execs: sons Robert and Anthony Younger
Witnesses: James Bruce, Daniel Mills, George Estis and Mary Estis, her mark (daughter of Marcus)
Security: Joel Tucker, Edward Carlton

Note:  The fact that George and Mary Estes, sister to John, witnessed his deed indicates that they were close to John and trusted family members.  Also note that Mary Younger Estes cannot write.

John (son of Marcus) died in 1817.  His wife was Lucy Hart and he was obviously already married when he came to Halifax.  His children were:

  • Robert S who married Mary Polly Moore and died in 1870
  • Joel who married Lucy Cain and then Fentel Hart
  • John who married Elizabeth and lived in Pittsylvania Co.
  • Thomas married Elizabeth Willingham
  • Nancy married Vincent Carlton
  • Sally married Joel Anderson
  • Elizabeth married an Anderson and then Thomas Andrews
  • Anthony who married Nancy Carrell and sells land in 1824 to James Bruce, by 1830 they live in Franklin Co., VA
  • Polly who was widowed by a Ray and then marries Samuel Younger (son of Thomas). She has children by Ray, Bazrael (wife Jane) and Elizabeth Ray.

Joel (son of John, son of Marcus) died in 1877 and had the following children:

    • Samuel W. (presumed Younger)
    • Vincent B. (presumed Younger)
    • Harriett F. Carlton
    • Matilda E. Tune
    • Louise E. Younger
    • Martha B. Younger
    • Joseph G. Younger
    • Thomas L. Younger

This was the last Younger family to own the original Younger land.  It was sold in 1906.

Robert, (son of John, son of Marcus) married Mary Polly Moore (William D. Moore brother, James D. Moore nephew), and died in 1870.  They had the following children:

    • Philip A. Younger
    • William Polard Younger
    • Peter Palmer Younger
    • John Marcus Younger (Methodist Minister) buried in Pittsylvania Co.
    • William Younger
    • James Younger
    • Betsy Light Younger
    • Martha F. Younger marries Thomas Bradley

It’s quite interesting that the theme of the Methodist religion runs through these families.  This may indeed be the tie that binds many together, especially in situations where they don’t appear as close neighbors, but the children are still intermarrying.  Their connection could well be through their church.  At this time, the only approved State church was the Anglican church, and everyone was required to attend and to pay tithes to support the church. Methodists and Baptists were considered “dissenting religions.”  Around the Revolutionary War, Halifax County authorized three dissenting ministers to perform marriages.  William Moore was one of those ministers, and his daughter, Nancy Ann Moore would marry John R. Estes, the son of George and Mary Estes, in 1811.  The Rice and Henderson families were also known to be dissenters, and the Younger family married into the Clark family who married into the Henderson family, who was already married into the Moore family.

In 1842, a chancery suit involving Marcus’s estate was settled.  The suit claimed that when the heirs of Marcus sold 52 acres to Thomas Clark, the heirs had received the purchase money, but that the whole of them had never conveyed to him clear title, although he was in possession of the land.  All of the children of Marcus Younger were listed, and if Marcus’s children were dead, their children as heirs were listed.   This suit was invaluable in reconstructing the family of Marcus Younger and in particular, his grandchildren.  However, the mystery of his parents, remains.

Marcus Younger Chancery Suit

Suit 1842-057, Halifax Co. Va. – extracted in June 2005 by Roberta Estes

The worshipful county court of Halifax in chancery sitting:  Humbly complaining sheweth unto your worships your orator Thomas Clark that a certain Marcus Younger died many years ago leaving a small tract of land containing about 53 (58?) acres to his wife Suckey Younger (see note) for life and at her death to be divided amongst his children.  That after the death of the said Suckey Younger, the rest of the children of the said Marcus Younger (the wife of your orator being one) sold the said land to  your orator,  put him in possession of the same and have received from them the whole of the purchase money, but have not as yet conveyed to him the legal title.  The names of the said renders(?) are John Henderson and Sally his wife, John Landrum and Sally his wife, Edward Henderson and Betsy his wife, Robert Younger and Mary his wife, Samuel Younger and Mary his wife, Thomas P. Anderson, Joel Younger and Fental his wife, Vincent Carlton and Nancy his wife, Joel Anderson and Sally his wife, Thomas Younger and Betsy his wife, William Estes and Rebecca his wife, James Smith and Polly his wife, Susanna Estes, Marcus Estes, William Clark and Mary his wife, Anthony Younger and Nancy his wife, John Younger and Betsy his wife, Younger Wyatt and Polly his wife, John Estes and Nancy his wife, Thomas Estes and Sally his wife.  In tender consideration of the promises and in as much as your orator is remedyless therein at last?.  To this end therefore that the above named renders? be made parties to this suit and required to answer the allegations herein contained under oath.  That in consequence of the said partys being numerous and widely dispersed in the United States that the said court decree that the legal title to the said land be conveyed to your orator and that the parties to the said contract as vendors? be required to do so and unless they shall do so within a reasonable time that the court appoint a commissioner for that purpose and grant all other recipients relief.  May it please the court to grant the Commonwealths writ of subpoena.

Note:  This mention of his wife Suckey Younger drove me to distraction for years.  During one of the visits to Halifax County, I saw a form for a lawsuit and realized that often, forms or standard language were used at that time as well.  The standard verbiage here would be wife and not daughter.  The next sentence in fact says, “the rest of the children” and the subsequent suit and deeds all reference Susannah not as the wife of Marcus, but his daughter.  Unfortunately, in this case, the fact that his wife and the daughter who died without marrying and without heirs shared the same first name.

Next document:

The joint answer of John Henderson and Sally his wife, John Landrum and Polly his wife, Edward Henderson and Betsy his wife, Robert Younger and Mary his wife, Samuel Younger and Mary his wife, Thomas P. Anderson and Betsy his wife, Joel Younger and Fental his wife, Vincent Carlton and Nancy his wife, Joel Anderson and Sally his wife, Thomas Younger and Betsy his wife, William Estes and Rebecca his wife, James Smith and Polly his wife, Susanna Estes, Marcus Estes, William Clark and Mary his wife, Anthony Younger and Nancy his wife, John Younger and Betsy his wife, Younger Wyatt and Polly his wife, John Estes and Nancy his wife.  Thomas Estes and Sally his wife to a bill of complaint exhibited against them in the county court of Halifax by Thomas Clark – These respondents saving? Do say that the allegations of the complainants bill are true and having answered pray to be hence dismissed.

Next document

This cause came on this day to be heard on the bill of chancery and answered and was argued by counsel and consideration and decise? that Jonathan B. Stovall who is hereby appointed a commissioner for that purpose do by proper deeds convey the lands in the proceeding mentioned to Thomas Clark in fee simply with special warranty.

Two attached pages in file as follows:

Page 1

Marcus Younger left 83 acres for life to Sukey Younger for life and at her death to be divided among his children.  Note – after this statement, in a different handwriting, begins the list of his heirs.

  • Elizabeth Clark, Sally Wyatt, John Younger, Mary Estes, children of Marcus
  • Thomas, Sally Henderson wife of John Henderson, Polly Landrum wife of John Landrum, Betsy wife of Edward Henderson, William Clark, Children of Elizabeth Clark (inferring that she is deceased).
  • Younger Wyatt child of Sally Wyatt
  • Robert, Polly wife of Samuel Younger, Anthony, Joel, Betsy wife of J. P. Anderson, Nancy wife of Vincent P. Carlton, John, Thomas, Sally wife of Joel Anderson – children of John Younger.
  • John Estes, William, Susannah, Sally wife of T. Estes, Polly wife of James Smith and a grandchild name Mark Estes – children of Mary Estes.
  • Elizabeth Clark’s children are entitled each to 1/5 of 1/4th
  • Younger Wyatt entitled to ¼th
  • John Younger’s children are each entitled to 1/9 of 1/4th
  • Mary Estes children are entitled each to 1/6 of 1/4th
  • Mary Estes grandchild is entitled to 1/6th of 1/4th

Next page:

  • Thomas Clark and Peggy his wife – Halifax
  • John Henderson and Sally his wife – Halifax
  • John Landrum and Polly his wife – Halifax
  • Edward Henderson Jr. and Betsy his wife – Halifax
  • William Clark and Mary his wife – Patrick County
  • Robert Younger and Mary his wife – Halifax
  • Samuel Younger and Mary his wife – Halifax
  • Anthony Younger and Nancy his wife – Franklin
  • Thomas P. Anderson and Betsy his wife – Halifax
  • Joel Younger and Fental his wife – Halifax
  • John Younger and Betsy his wife – Pittsylvania
  • Vincent Carlton and Nancy his wife – Halifax
  • Joel Anderson and Sally his wife – Halifax
  • Thomas Younger and Betsy his wife – Halifax
  • Younger Wyatt and Polly his wife – Rutherford County Tennessee
  • John Estes and Nancy his wife – Rutherford Co Tennessee (actually ditto marks and John was actually in Claiborne by this time it is believed)
  • William Estes and Rebecca his wife – Halifax
  • Susannah Estes – Halifax
  • Thomas Estes and Sally his wife – Montgomery County Tennessee
  • James Smith and Polly his wife – Halifax
  • Marcus Estes (son of Mark) – Halifax

(Note – Marcus Estes the son of George and Mary Estes died in 1815 shortly after his marriage.  Susanna Y. Estes, the daughter of George and Mary Estes, who never married, also had a son Marcus Estes, not to be confused with this Marcus, the son of George and Mary Estes.)

Thomas Younger, born before 1806, died in 1791, wives unknown

Thomas Younger had to have been born before 1706 if he was administering his father’s estate in 1727.  His father, Alexander wrote his will in 1725.  If Thomas was 21 at that time, he would have been born in or before 1704.

Thomas Younger was in Halifax County by 1765 when both Thomas and William appeared on different tax lists.

1781 – Halifax County – Revolutionary War Public Claims from Thomas Younger.  22 diets #1-7-6, 15 do, 15 forages#1-10, 54# mutton 11s-3, .5 bu corn 1s-3, 4 gal brandy #2, .5 bu oats, 17 diets #1-2, 100# fodder 3s, 56# fodder, 1 bu corn, 2 bu oats 7s-1.75, 200# fodder 6s, 6 forrages, 1 qt brandy, 3 diets 9s-9, 5 pts brandy 6s-3 cont

Thomas owned land on Terrible Creek adjacent his son William who died in 1801.  This relationship is proven in one of the many chancery suits that follow regarding Thomas’s will and his daughter Susannah who had land for her life.  Upon her death, the heirs filed suits to determine how her assets were to be divided.  Thomas Younger’s children were:

  • Susannah who never married and inherited land
  • Samuel who married Polly Younger Ray
  • James who could not be found for an estate distribution when Susannah dies but then suddenly shows up, causing yet another chancery suit
  • John
  • Joseph
  • Thomas (of the half blood)
  • Mary Fretwell Scudders (of the half blood)
  • Jesse who dies in 1805
  • William who owns land on Terrible Creek and died in 1801 (see below)
  • Elizabeth who had the child (John G. Younger) by Rev. Gordon and marries John LeGrand
  • Nancy (Nanny) Smallman
  • Katey Brown
  • Dolly Light
  • Lucy who married George Winn
  • Rebecca married John Franklin
  • Rachel

It doesn’t help in the confusion factor that both Marcus and Thomas have daughters Susannah who never marry.

The Younger Store

The old store below is all that is visibly left of the family on the main road, 501, the L.P. Bailey Memorial Highway.  This building is about equidistant between the two families, Thomas and Marcus.  Brownie, Thomas Younger’s descendant, who took the photo about 2002, believes it was run by Joel’s family, who would have been Marcus’s grandson.  You can see that at one time this was probably an early gas station, with the cars pulling under the roof area.  This building still stood in 2008.

Younger store

The Marcus Younger Graveyard

The old Younger family graveyard is located on the original Younger land upon the North side of Banister River located off of current road 610, Murphy Grove Road, on land that included part of Yellow Bank Creek, according to early deeds.  This land passed from Marcus Younger to his son John and then to John’s son Joel.  I understood that this land was sold in about 1892 to Walter Tune, so I originally thought it could still be in the Tune family, especially given there is an “old Tune house” in that vicinity.

I found records indicating that the graveyard was apparently in the woods near the Tune house, but without a local who knew the area, locating it was going to be very difficult.

In the spring of 2008, with the help of lots of people, I eventually located and visited the original Younger cemetery.  I wrote the following story about it at the time.  The first part is written in 2007 when I first attempted to locate the cemetery, and the second part in 2008 when I finally found it with the help of one very generous farmer, the current land owner, and my cousin, Audrey.

Meeting Marcus Younger – 1740-1816

Yes, indeed, I met Marcus, just last week…..but not as you might think.

Two or three years ago when I was visiting the Halifax County, Virginia courthouse, extracting records in the damp dusty basement, a gentleman came in and began talking to Lawrence Martin, the gentleman who works in the historical records there.  This visitor’s interest was veterans of the various wars who lived in Halifax County, but in particular, those who died in service.

Later in that week, I met with my cousin to do some genealogical spelunking for the Estes and Younger surnames, and she mentioned a gentleman named Doug  who might know about the Younger line, as he too is a descendant.  Yep, it was Doug who was in the courthouse and I had already exchanged e-mails with him.

Doug and I compared notes.  I had discovered an old document in the library in Danville in a prior visit that mentioned an old Younger cemetery on the original Marcus Younger land.  The individual who wrote the document had visited it many years ago, years as measured in decades, probably between the 1930s and 1960s, as best I could tell.  Clearly her address was no longer valid and her phone number only had 5 digits.  All I had were her cryptic directions, based on landmarks of that time and road names that had since changed.  Oh yes, and a new major road was put in too, but I didn’t know that it hadn’t always been there.  The old woods had been logged, and the well that was supposed to be there apparently wasn’t…..but I’m getting ahead of my own story.

Doug and I communicated for a few months, but then Doug grew very ill.  His recovery took a long time and he faced many challenges.  In one of his e-mails, he mentioned that I should call a lady named Audrey, that she might know more about the cemetery and such, that she also descended from the Youngers.

Now I hate to make phone calls, especially cold calls, but I’d do just about anything to find my ancestors, so I put off the call as long as possible, but eventually, call Audrey I did.  Audrey was very nice when I finally made that call in August of 2007.  I was going to NC on business and planned to be in Halifax County for one day on the way back.  For a researcher who had spent weeks in Halifax, one day was little opportunity to get anything done, but one day was better than nothing, and I was looking forward to meeting my new cousin, Audrey, who was going to take a DNA kit to one of her male Younger cousins on the Marcus Younger line.

Audrey said she thought she could get us to the cemetery based on the directions in the old letter.  She knew it existed, but she had never been there herself.  In fact, she had a list of some of the people buried in the cemetery, provided by an elderly relative years ago, which she gave me and are listed below.  My identification notes as to how they connect are in parenthesis.

  1. Louise Younger Tune Younger (daughter of Joel Younger who married first a Tune (who was killed in the Civil War) and then her first cousin, Patrick (also shown as Phillip) Andrew Jackson Younger, son of Robert H. Younger, Joel’s brother)
  2. Patrick A. J. Younger (Louise’s husband & 1st cousin)
  3. Kate Younger (Louise’s unmarried sister, daughter of Joel Younger)
  4. Tom Younger (Louise’s unmarried brother, son of Joel Younger and Civil War Veteran)
  5. Nathan Younger (Louise’s unmarried brother, son of Joel and Civil War Veteran)
  6. Walter Tune’s father (Louise’s first husband, his first name unknown, killed in the Civil War)

These turned out to be the children of Joel Younger, grandson of Marcus, so this did in fact confirm we had the right family cemetery.

Audrey and I set out to find the cemetery.  We visited the old “Tune House”, now called “Breezy Hill”.

tune house

This house clearly is not old enough nor the correct style to be the original Marcus Younger home built around 1788 when he first purchased land here. However, this does fit exactly with the directions we found at the library, and with what Audrey knew from her lifetime of living in this area.

tune house 2

The Tune House in 1982, compliments of Johnny and Donna McKinney, the current owners.

tune-home-1982

According to the old directions in the library in Danville from the folks who found the cemetery years ago, this is exactly what we should find:

“Route 610 to a dirt road on the left and follow to end of public maintenance where you see a large white farmhouse.  Near the house towards the back on the right is a farm road leading down to the creek through a gate.  Drive across the creek and you will find an old rock lined well now covered by a concrete slab.  Near the well is an area slightly sunken covered by English Ivy.  Follow the road on the right about ½ mile beyond the creek.  There is a large graveyard in the woods, completely overgrown with trees and a groundcover of periwinkle.”

Route 610 to a dirt road on the left and follow to end of public maintenance where you see a large white farmhouse.  Near the house towards the back on the right is a farm road leading down to the creek through a gate.  Drive across the creek and you will find an old rock lined well now covered by a concrete slab.  Near the well is an area slightly sunken covered by English Ivy.  Follow the road on the right about ½ mile beyond the creek.  There is a large graveyard in the woods, completely overgrown with trees and a groundcover of periwinkle.

How on earth would we find this in 2007?

We obtained permission from the current owners to drive on back on their property to find the old cemetery, so off we went.  They were aware that it was there, but did not know its exact location.

After a false start going down the wrong farm lane, we indeed found Yellow Bank Creek, although the name has been lost to the current generation.  Looking at the yellow clay, the reason for the name is obvious.  However, the gate was gone and we didn’t expect such a large “dip” in the “road”, shown below.

yellow bank creek

Audrey was getting a bit nervous.  My cell phone didn’t work and she clearly did not want to be the laughing stock of the county for getting stuck in the woods with her northern cousin.  I got out and walked across the creek, determining that there was gravel in the bottom and we’d be fine so long as we didn’t tarry and maintained a good speed when crossing.  I got back in and told Audrey to hold on, and off we went across the creek in the Jeep.  She was truly a good sport, although she periodically looked terrified.

Looking across the creek below, we initially went to the right on a little road only visible by a small clearing in the trees and then determined that this must not be the way, then followed the visible tracks, although it turns out the first overgrown road was the old road we wanted.  This turned to the left and then the ground became somewhat soft and we drove on a raised burm until the washouts made us turn back.  It was pretty rough back there, even for a Jeep, with quite deep well-hidden (with underbrush and overgrowth,) unforeseen gulleys that could easily swallow a car.

We looked, but the area was so over grown that we could not see any well or anything that looked like a well had ever been there.  But then again, we weren’t quite sure what we were looking for either.

Little did we know that the well as actually about just past the clump of trees across the creek on the right, to the right of the road about where the dirt mound is showing.  I would discover that this year (2008), but we were painfully close last fall.

Audrey and I decided that we really needed to abandon our plans since we could not get to the cemetery the way we were going and it was getting into the late afternoon and it was getting more difficult to see those gulleys.

On the way out, I took photos of the creek upstream in the little pond and downstream as well, as I knew full well this was the place.  However, I desperately wanted to find the cemetery where Marcus and his family, my family, rested.

Audrey mentioned that she knew a farmer who could take us to the land, but he had recently sold it to another gentleman.  She called the farmer in question, but he wasn’t home, and besides that, he would need to chat with the current property owner before taking us back to the cemetery from the “front side”.

My visit was coming to a close, so Audrey and I parted and agreed to try this trip again in the spring of 2008 when the brush was less dense and when we could find the right people to show us where the cemetery was located.  It had become obvious that without knowing where you were going, you weren’t going to find it.

yellow bank 2

Above, Yellow Bank looking downstream.  Below, Yellow Bank looking upstream.

yellow bank 3

I left and came home, and Audrey began to pursue the people we would need to help us locate the cemetery.  She told me that the new land owner, a man named  Dennis, was building a house there and had actually rented from Larry Younger, a Thomas Younger descendant and local veterinarian, while he was getting settled.  What a small world.

What a string of coincidences, or maybe Marcus was helping.

To put things in perspective, this is the location where we were traveling.

The topo map below was provided by Denny and the yellow highlighter shows the location of the cemetery.  There is a second smaller cemetery near the main road due north of the cemetery on the old road shown that enters from the main road.  This road is now defunct, but a small cemetery remains beside this road.  The third cemetery, which we now know holds the remains of the Street family, is marked on this map near what is now Younger road.  Denny’s land is penciled.

younger topo

Note Terrible Creek just across the main road on the map above.  That’s where Thomas Younger owned land and the Younger store is on the main road between the two locations

younger topo 2

Trying to coordinate between the schedules of several people in the spring of 2008 presented some challenges, plus the challenge of not exactly knowing where the cemetery was located.  Discussions with Denny, the current land owner, several days in advance disclosed that there wasn’t just one, not two, but three different cemeteries on his property, and that he had purchased his property in segments from different people.  To confuse matters even more, there is a 4th cemetery near his land, between his land and the Banister River, which houses the grave of Hawkins Landrum, a very early dissenting preacher in that area who died about 1804.  The local folks tell of the time that his “people” came from Texas to see the grave and there are probably only 1 or 2 people still living who know where that cemetery is located.  We have determined that it is not on Younger land.

Denny was kind enough to contact the title companies involved and they did produce some helpful documentation, which I was able to use as a baseline to work from in my courthouse research.  My first day was spent at the courthouse in an attempt to track Denny’s various land purchases backwards in time to meet Marcus Younger’s descendants coming forward in time.

What an interesting exercise that was!

Fortunately, we had isolated the land to that just north of the Horseshoe Bend in the Banister River, which was a readily recognizable landmark.  You can see the bend on the map below, at the bottom.  The approach we took in 2007 shows up in white, and you can see where it crosses Yellow Bank Creek, about an inch to the left of where the white line ends.

Yellow bank arrow v2

On the map below, you can see Younger Road and Bessie Marion Trail as well.

yellow bank arrow v22

The Yellow Bank Creek crossing is shown by the red arrow.  Here is a closer view.  The cemetery is between the house and barn and the Creek crossing.  Below, you can clearly see Dennis’s new construction.

marcus topo2

Here we are, in 2008, back at the infamous creek crossing.  But this time, I’m on the right side of the creek with someone who knows where they are going.

You can see the yellow clay and can tell why it was named Yellow Bank Creek.

yellow bank creek 2

Cemeteries, especially abandoned pioneer cemeteries and homesteads are often marked by daffodils and periwinkle in the spring.  This one was no different.  These flowers are often wonderful guides.  Marcus Younger or maybe his wife may have planted these.

In the earlier directions, a well was mentioned.  Dennis knew exactly where it was.  This is probably the original house well that Marcus Younger used and he perhaps dug the well himself.  The original stones are there but it was shored up in later days and then of course, the well was eventually abandoned.

younger well

The area behind the well shows evidence that it had once been a homestead.  Daffodils were getting ready to bloom in a wide area.  This is probably where the original log cabin was located and where Marcus lived.

younger by well

Younger step

Was this the original step to the house?

The current owners of the Tune House, Donna and Johnny McKinney, contacted me a couple years after this original article was published.  Donna and Johnny who are researching the history of the property, indicated that they believe this well was associated with the original Tune home that had burned, prior to the current one being rebuilt.  The clump of trees below is believed to be the location of the original Tune home, as told to them by Walter Tune’s great-grandson, Doug Tune.  These trees can be seen in the background of the photo of the Walter Tune family, shown earlier.

tune-home-place

Johnny located another foundation, about 600 feet from the well, which he believes to be the original Younger cabin, with the cemetery sitting directly up the hill maybe 300 feet from the remains. He promises to take some photos as soon as the winter weather lets up!

Dennis, the current Younger property owner, knew exactly where the cemetery was.  It is, like the original records said, located in the woods.  I could not help but think how difficult these graves would have been to dig.

younger cem

younger cem 2

Many graves are still marked by fieldstones, hidden under the leaves and periwinkle.

younger cem 3

None of the graves are actually marked with contemporary stones, all have simple field stones.

younger cem 4

This cemetery is not small.  Among this family must surely be Marcus and his wife, Susanna and their unmarried daughter, also Susanna.  Another daughter, Sally, died young, after having only one child, and she is probably here too.  Marcus’s son John, who inherited this land, died only a year after his father at about age 57 and assuredly is buried here.  John’s wife, Lucy Hart, died 17 years later, in 1834, and probably rests here too.  Any of their children who died would also be buried here, surrounded by their parents and grandparents.

Marcus and his wife only had 5 documented children.  They were married their entire adult life to each other, as best we know, having had son John in 1760, probably their first child.  They could have been expected to have 10-12 children during a normal reproductive marriage, which implies that 5-7 children died.  Some may be buried here, some back in King and Queen or Essex Counties.  How hard it must have been for Susanna to leave the graves of her babies.

If Susanna married Marcus Younger at approximately age 20 and had her first child, John, in 1760, we could expect that she would be bearing children for approximately the next 25 years, or until 1785.  We know she was dead by 1805 when Marcus made his will, as was her unnamed daughter who married the Wyatt.

Our ancestor who was Marcus and Susanna’s child was Mary Younger who married George Estes in 1786, roughly two years before Marcus Younger purchased this land on Banister River.  In fact, this was before George’s father, Moses Estes Jr. had bought the land abutting William Younger in what is now South Boston.  The first records of George Estes are in the north part of the county, possibly living and working on the Younger land.  Thomas Younger lived here long before Marcus first bought land. George Estes and Mary Younger may also have children buried here.  Mary died sometimes after 1831 and before 1842 and we’ve always presumed she was buried in the Estes cemetery, now under the landfill, in South Boston.  If she is not buried there, then she is surely buried here.

Joel Younger, son of Marcus’s son John Younger and his wife Lucy Hart, inherited the Marcus Younger land and died in 1877.  Joel’s first wife, Lucy Caine, died in 1818, probably in childbirth, only 4 years after their marriage and a year after Joel’s father, John died, the year after Marcus died.  The Younger family visited this sacred burying ground often.

Joel’s second wife, Fentel Hart, died in 1862, during the Civil War.  Where else would Joel and his wives be buried?  Other family members could well be buried here as well.  Many children died young and we don’t even know their names.  After the census began to be recorded for every family member in 1850, complete with ages, we know these children existed because there is a gap in the living children of the exact spacing for one who died.  It’s certain that many are buried here with their parents, grandparents and siblings.

When property passed out of the hands of the original owners, the new family often started a new family cemetery elsewhere on the property.  This land did not pass from the Younger family hands until in the 1900s and according to the list provided by Audrey, several of the Tunes are buried here as well.  The Tunes were Younger descendants through Joel’s daughters Louisa and Matilda who both married Tunes.  Louisa’s husband, William R. Tune was taken prisoner during the Civil War, and died, but their only child, a son, Walter T. Tune, born in 1864, would own and live on this land.  Louisa’s second husband was her first cousin, Phillip A.J. Younger, son of Robert, brother to her father, Joel.  This means that Louisa’s name was Louisa Younger Tune Younger.  Louisa and Phillip lost at least 4 children who are recorded in Audrey’s note as having been buried here as well.  Walter T. Tune died in 1945 and is buried in the McKendree United Methodist Church Cemetery, located just down the road, the first generation not to be buried in this Younger family cemetery.

tune_family1

There are abandoned buildings on the property.  I think this building below is too new to be the original home.  Dennis said this is an old barn.

younger barn

Dennis said the photo below may have been the original house.  I question that because it’s not a log cabin, but maybe planks were made by the 1780s when Marcus moved to Halifax County.  Although the original house/cabin would have been very close to the well and this one is not.  Some building was located by that well and the daffodils near Yellow Bank Creek.  It’s certainly possible that at one time both Marcus Younger and his son John both lived on this land, along with possibly other families as well, such as George and Mary Younger Estes.  Multigenerational family farms were not uncommon.  Later generations, such as Joel, may have built a “new” house too.

younger house

The second cemetery on the property is shown below.

second younger cem

Did someone lovingly plant this daffodil on their family member’s grave?

second younger cem daffodil

The property owner, Dennis, showed me a second cemetery on the property as well.  He believes this may be a slave cemetery.  It is much smaller and many fewer graves, above and below.  The graves are marked with the same kind of field stones as the larger cemetery.

second younger cem fieldstone

The 2008 visit was just wonderful, to find and stand on the land that Marcus owned and to visit his grave, someplace in that cemetery, nearly 200 years after his death.

Reflections Upon Marcus’s Parents

While there are many records we don’t have for Halifax County’s early residents, such as birth and death records, there are also many that do exist.  Unfortunately, the same can’t be said for King and Queen County, Virginia, whose early records are entirely lost.

By combining all of those juicy tidbits, we discover that there is actually a lot of information, in bits and pieces, about Marcus Younger as well as the other Younger families found in Halifax County, even though we still don’t know how they are related.   We are provided with a glimpse into Marcus’s life and the lives of his children.  We know where he lived and died, and where his daughter, Mary lived after she married George Estes.

Who was the father of Marcus Younger?  Speculation abounds, but no genealogical hints have been forthcoming at all.  Y DNA tests test males of the same surname and can determine if they share a common ancestor.  They don’t tell you which common ancestor though, just if you match others of the same last name. Originally, this was the extent of DNA testing available.  Today, in 2014, autosomal DNA testing that matches both male and female cousins is also available.  People from both the Thomas and James Younger lines, both sons of Alexander match the descendants of Marcus Younger utilizing autosomal testing, so he appears to be descended from the Younger family, just not through the paternal line.  Given all of the evidence available, it’s likely that he descends through an illegitimate birth by one of Alexander Younger’s daughters.

Currently, the Marcus Younger Y-line matches a Seay and a Rolland.  Autosomally, we know that Marcus is descended from the Younger family, and he carries the surname, so by process of elimination, it must be through a female, because it is clearly not on the paternal male line.

The Promise of DNA

There are two types of DNA testing that is relevant to the Younger family in terms of sorting out who Marcus’s family and parents were.

The first is Y DNA testing, in which the father contributes the Y chromosome to only his sons.  That DNA is not mixed with any DNA from the mother, so it is passed unchanged from male generation to male generation, all carrying the same surname, Younger.  Therefore, when we Y DNA test two Younger men, if their Y DNA matches, we know they share a common paternal (surname) ancestor, and if it doesn’t, then no common paternal ancestor.

There is no question that the male Younger descendants of Marcus Younger don’t match the male descendants of either Alexander Younger or his son, Thomas Younger.  However, the descendants of Alexander Younger do match each other, through two different sons, Thomas and James.  Therefore, we know what the “true” Younger line looks like, and which of these is the “undocumented adoption.”

The second type of DNA testing is autosomal testing.  This test differs from that of the Y, because it tests all of your DNA that is contributed by both Mom and Dad’s lines, equally.  Therefore, in each new generation, the autosomal DNA that you received from your ancestors is divided in half as the next generation is created by combining the DNA of mother and father together.  Half of the DNA of each parent is used, in effect roughly halving the DNA of each ancestor passed on to the child.

Several generations downstream from any given ancestor, descendants carry small amounts of DNA from that ancestor.  You carry half of your parents DNA, roughly 25% of the DNA of each grandparent, 12.5% of the DNA of each great-grandparents, until eventually, in the 7th generation, or your 4th great-grandparents, you carry about 1% of their autosomal DNA, and so do all of their other great-great-great-great-grandchildren.  Marcus is in fact my 4th great-grandfather, so I carry about 1.5% of his autosomal DNA.

Comparing our autosomal DNA is how we identify cousins.  By matching, we know we share a common ancestor, and by comparing genealogy, we figure out which common ancestor we share.  When we have three or more descendants that share a common piece of DNA, we can then identify that DNA segment as belonging to that specific ancestor, and anyone else who matches us on that same segment is confirmed to have come from that ancestral line in some fashion.  For example, if someone matches me and two Younger cousins on the same DNA segment, we know they are either descended from the Younger line or the line of one of the Younger wives upstream, genealogically, from our common ancestral match.

Let’s say that three Younger descendants match autosomally: me who descends from Marcus, someone who descends from Thomas, son of Alexander and someone who descends from James, son of Alexander.  This tells us that all 3 of us either match through the Alexander Younger line, or his ancestors, or though Alexander’s wife or Alexander’s ancestor’s wives lines.  Of course, Alexander’s ancestors become Alexander’s line, but his wife’s line becomes his children’s biological line.

This is important to understand because Alexander’s wife was Rebecca Mills.  It’s certainly possible that we will match Mills cousins who have no Youngers in their line, because our common ancestor with those Mills cousins through Alexander Younger’s children was not Alexander, but his wife.

To shed light on the Younger family connections, we’ve utilized both Y line and autosomal DNA.

The DNA Evidence 

Descendants of Thomas Younger and of Marcus Younger both took the Y DNA test some years ago, and we were absolutely stunned to discover that their Y DNA did not match.  We have two descendants of John, the only son of Marcus, and they do match each other, but no other Youngers.  It is possibly that Marcus did match the Alexander Younger line of DNA, but his son John, did not.  However, given that John’s descendants match Alexander’s descendants autosomally, that virtually eliminates that possibility.  If that were the case, that John was not Marcus’s biological son, he would not match the Younger line at all on autosomal tests, because his mother was not genetically a Younger.

The several descendants of Thomas Younger match each other and also the descendants of Alexander’s other son, James.  So Marcus seems to be related to the family, carries the surname, but does not share a direct paternal ancestor on his father’s side.

Our candidates for his parents are quite limited.

Barring a totally unknown Younger person, we have the following candidates.

John Younger, son of Alexander – but that would also mean that John was not the biological son of Alexander but did share a mother since Marcus’s descendants autosomally match this line today.  Since Alexander’s estate paid to register the death of John, that implies that John was not yet married at the time of his death and responsible for himself.  This effectively eliminates John as a possibility.  If Marcus was John’s illegitimate son, he would not carry the Younger surname.

The other alternative is that Marcus is the illegitimate child of one of Alexander’s daughters.  His daughters were named Ann, Mary, Janet, Susannah and Elizabeth.  Unfortunately, three of those names are repeated in Marcus’s daughters, but it could effectively eliminate Janet and Ann, unless Marcus had a child with that name that died young and he did not reuse the name as so many people did at that time.  As it turns out, Ann and Janet married about 1732, which would probably eliminate them since Marcus appears to have been born about 1740 – but it doesn’t completely eliminate them as possible mothers as Marcus could have been born earlier.  We have no information on the other 3 daughters, Mary, Susannah and Elizabeth other than they were minors at their father’s death in 1727 and Thomas was appointed their legal guardian in 1732, indicating they were still minors at that time, so born after 1711.

This scenario, that Marcus was the child of one of Alexander’s daughters would fit what we do know about this family both genetically and genealogically.

The DNA Jackpot

This brings us to December 2013.  Until then, none of the descendants of Marcus Younger autosomally matched the descendants of Thomas Younger, at least not on large enough segments to be counted as a match at the testing companies.

I manage the kit of one of the descendants of John Younger, Marcus’s son.  We’ll call him Larry.

I received a query from someone about matching Larry autosomally.  I sent the note that I always do, with some basic genealogy info.  What I received back was a pedigree chart screen shot from the match, David, that included Thomas Younger as his ancestor.  He descended from Thomas via a daughter.

younger pedigree 2

Once again, I was stunned, because here was the link we had sought for so many years…a genetic bond between Thomas and Marcus.

Of course, the first thing I did was to ask about other lines as well through which Larry and David might be related.  There were none.

Then I turned to DNA.  Larry matches me and Larry matches David, but I don’t match David.  This could well be because we don’t have any segment matches above the match threshold of approximately 7.7cM at Family Tree DNA, but since we both match Larry, I could look at Larry’s matches and then drop the comparison level to below the matching threshold to see all of our common matches between the three of us.

Below are our default 5 cM matches on chromosome 1-10.  We show a match on chromosomes 1, 4 and 10, but no common segments between the three of us.  There were no matches on chromosomes 11-22, so they are not shown.

I am orange.  David is blue.  Larry is who we are being compared against and is represented by the black background chromosome.

younger chromosome

Dropping the cM matching threshold level to 1 shows us that golden nugget we have searched for so diligently on the following graph.  In this case, with the matching threshold lowered, we now have matches on chromosomes 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12 and 15.

Look at chromosome 1.  All 3 of us match on a small segment of DNA.  That DNA is Younger DNA.  And that little orange and blue segment proves that indeed, Marcus and Thomas were related, because all 3 of us match on the exact same segment of the chromosome.  In other words, that segment comes from a common ancestor of all 3 of us, and there is only one common line, the Youngers.

younger match

This also means that there will be others who fall into this “too small to be a match but hugely relevant small segment” scenario.  In order to take a look, I triangulated all of the matches for my cousin Larry and David, and there were a total of 15 individuals.

But here’s the amazing part.

There are 16 people in total, including Larry and David who match.

I compared them in the chromosome browser, and downloaded all of them.  I then sorted them by chromosome and start/end segment.  Here is that oh so beautiful “proof” match on chromosome 1.

younger match chart

There are a total of 191 individual segments across all chromosomes where these people match Larry.

Of those 191 segments,  there are also 94 segments on which one or more of us also match each other.  Those are shaded green above for chromosome 1.

Of those 94 segments, only 8 were large enough to be above the matching threshold.  That means that there were a total of 86 segments that were below the matching threshold but that were useful genealogically.  On chromosome 1 above, only Larry and I would have been over that threshold, and we were already matching.

Looking at those 8 large segment matches, some were between known relatives on both sides, like me and Larry on chromosome 1, but until there was someone who connected the dots and matched someone on both sides, like David, on a segment large enough to be counted as a match, the connection wasn’t there and the other matches weren’t meaningful to the question and answer of whether Marcus and Thomas were related.

David matches Larry on a large enough segment to be counted as a match on chromosomes 4 and 10, neither of which is a match to me in that location.

The golden “proof” egg, in this case, for the three of us, was hidden in a very small segment on chromosome 1 that would have gone entirely unnoticed and unreported because it was not over the vendor match threshold.

Are We Done?

Of course, we’re not “done.”  Genealogists are never “done” because as soon as you find one more ancestor, there are two more needing to be discovered, their parents.  I’d still like to know where the Younger family originated overseas before we find them in Glasgow, Scotland, although that could be before the advent of surnames.  I’d like to know who Marcus’s paternal line is and I’d like to identify the surname of his wife.  For that matter, I’d also like to know who his mother was and the circumstances surrounding his birth.  You know there has to be a story there and probably some scuttlebutt too.

Given that we do now know that Marcus is descended from the Alexander Younger line, even though we don’t know exactly how, let’s take a look at what we do know about this Younger line.

Glasgow, Scotland, the Younger Ancestral Home

There’s a lot we don’t know about the Younger line, but there is a whole raft of information that has been discovered, that tells us about the lives of our Younger ancestors and their descendants.  Halifax County is rich with Younger family history beginning around the time of the Revolutionary War.  Prior to that, the Younger family was found in Essex and King and Queen Counties, in Virginia.

We know that Alexander Younger was married to Rebecca Mills around 1700 in Essex County and that their son was Thomas Younger.  We know that Marcus and Thomas are related, in some way.  I’ve speculated that Marcus’s mother was a sister of Thomas Younger, and if this is correct, then Alexander Younger would be the grand-father of Marcus Younger.  DNA tells us that they are related.  We just don’t know how.

The identity of Marcus’s wife as a Hart is also suggested by DNA testing, but needs additional matches to be confirmed, although I’m fairly confident at this point.

What we do know is this.  Alexander Younger was born probably around 1675 in Scotland.  We know that because his will, after immigrating to America and having children with Rebecca Mills, stated that if his entire family died, his estate was to be left to his brother Andrew, in Scotland.

From this point, we move to the Scottish records, but we can’t prove beyond a doubt that the Alexander in the 1681 Glasgow baptismal records is ours.

Alexander Younger’s father, born January 15, 1652 in the High Church in Glasgow, Scotland, is believed to be one Thomas Younger who married Anna Smith.  We have no way of knowing whether or not the Alexander who immigrated to America and married Rebecca Mills is the same Alexander who was born to Thomas Younger and Anna Smith, although three of Alexander’s children carried the same first names as the children of Thomas Younger and Anna Smith: Janet, Mary and Thomas.  Mary and Thomas aren’t unusual, but Janet is rather rare.   Thomas Younger and Anna Smith also had a son named Andrew, which aligns with Alexander Younger’s 1725 will which leaves his estate, if none of his children survive, to his brother Andrew in Scotland.

According to the book, Scottish Church Records, Thomas Younger and Anna Smith’s children were christened in the High Church in Glasgow, as follows:

  • Janet Younger – Feb. 25, 1673
  • Jean Younger – Oct. 18, 1674
  • Agnes Younger – March 11, 1678
  • Alexander Younger – May 2, 1681
  • Andrew Younger – Nov. 13, 1683
  • Mary Younger – Feb. 16, 1690

Thomas Younger’s father, reportedly Alexander Younger was born about 1608 is a weaver and a burgess.  He married Margaret Steinson (Steinsoun) and was listed in the guild records as follows:

The Burgesses and Guild Brethren of Glasgow, 1573-1750
This is the roll of the parish of Portpatrick above “tuelve yeirs of age”
1639
County: Lanarckshire
Country: Scotland
Younger, Alexander, weaver, B., as third son to dec’d William Younger, burgess (G.B., as mar. Margaret, dau to dec’d Neill Steinson. B. and G.B., 24 Sep 1646) 31 Oct. 1639

Here’s a carving of 16th century burgesses from Glasgow.  Burgesses were free men, often in a guild.  Therefore all guild members were by default burgesses in the earliest meanings of the word.  Eventually, it could mean an elected official of the municipality.

burgess

Although the guild note referring to Alexander Younger is dated 1646, there is a marriage record for Alexander Younger and Margaret Steinsoune Feb. 9, 1632 and their first child was christened in January, 1633.

This record gives us his father’s name, as well as his home location of Lanarkshire, where Glasgow is located.  From this, we know that his father was William Younger and he is deceased in 1639, meaning that he would have been born before 1590 and probably earlier.

In summary, this gives us the following generations:

  • William Younger, burgess, born before 1590 and died by 1639
  • Alexander Younger, born circa 1608, married Margaret Steinson
  • Thomas Younger born before 1653, married Anna Smith
  • Alexander Younger born May 2, 1681, immigrated to America, married Rebecca Mills, will probated July 1727, Essex Co., VA

What do we know about Glasgow?  Who was living there, how was it settled and what was occurring during this timeframe that might have affected the lives of the residents?

The present site of Glasgow has been used since prehistoric times for settlement due to it being the furthest downstream fording point of the River Clyde, at the point of its confluence with the Molendinar Burn. After the Romans left Caledonia the settlement was part of the extensive Kingdom of Strathclyde, with its capital at Dumbarton 15 mi (24 km) downstream, which merged in the 9th century with other regions to create the united Kingdom of Scotland.  The origins of Glasgow as an established city derive ultimately from its medieval position as Scotland’s second largest bishopric. Glasgow increased in importance during the 10th and 11th centuries as the site of this bishopric, reorganized by King David I of Scotland and John, Bishop of Glasgow.

There had been an earlier religious site established by Saint Mungo in the 6th century.

Glasgow grew over the following centuries, the first bridge over the River Clyde at Glasgow was recorded from around 1285, giving its name to the Briggait area of the city, forming the main North-South route over the river via Glasgow Cross. The founding of the University of Glasgow in 1451 and elevation of the bishopric to become the Archdiocese of Glasgow in 1492 served to increase the town’s religious and educational status, and landed wealth. Its early trade was in agriculture, brewing and fishing, with cured salmon and herring being exported to Europe and the Mediterranean.

Following the Reformation and with the encouragement of the Convention of Royal Burghs the 14 Incorporated Trade Crafts federated as the Trades House in 1605 to match the power and influence in the Town Council of the earlier Merchants Guilds who established their Merchants House in the same year. Glasgow was subsequently raised to the status of Royal Burgh in 1611.

This was about the time that William Younger would have been a young man.  For William’s third son, Alexander, to marry in 1646, at the probable age of between 25 and 30, he would have been born between 1616 and 1621.  We know for sure he was over the age of 12 in 1639, so definitely born before 1627.   His father, William, therefore, to have Alexander as his third son would have therefore been born before 1580 and probably before 1570.

Glasgow is today’s largest city in Scotland, but in the early 1600s, Glasgow was a relatively young and undeveloped city, as we can see by various maps.

In Glasgow, there are two churches referred to as High Church, Inner High Church at St. Mungo’s cathedral and Outer High Church or St. Paul’s.  The Glasgow Cathedral is called the “High Kirk” of Glasgow and is located between High and Cathedral Streets, also referred to as St. Mungo’s.  It was originally the Roman Catholic mother church before the Scottish Protestant Reformation in 1560.

William’s parents and grandparents would have lived through the Reformation , and William, depending on exactly when he was born, could have been baptized either Catholic or Protestant.  By the time Alexander came along, he would definitely have been baptized or christened as Protestant.

The Younger timeline in Glasgow, Scotland, as best we can reconstruct it, is shown below.

  • 1560 – Protestant Reformation
  • 1560 -1580 – William Younger, shown as a burgess, deceased in 1639, his third son Alexander is over the age of 12 at that time.
  • 1600 -1612 – Alexander Younger (Sr.), son of William, born. In 1639, he is over the age of 12 and in 1646, he marries Margaret Steinson.
  • 1632 – Alexander Younger married Margaret Steinsoune and in 1633, their first child is christened.
  • 1639 – Burgesses and Guild Brethren roll list Alexander Younger (Sr.) as over the age of 12 and his father, William, as deceased, with Alexander being his third son.
  • 1646 – Note in guild roll indicating Alexander Younger (Sr.) married Margaret Steinson.
  • 1652 – Thomas Younger, born in 1652.
  • 1656 – Alexander Younger is shown in the guild records as a weaver.
  • 1665 – Alexander Younger is shown in the guild records as a weaver.
  • 1672 – Thomas Younger married Anna Smith based on the christening of their first child in 1673 in the High Church in Glasgow.
  • 1681 – Alexander Younger (Jr.) born to Thomas Younger and Anna Smith and christened in the High Church in Glasgow, Scotland.
  • 1687 – Alexander Younger (Sr.) dies in Glasgow.
  • 1695 – Thomas Younger died in Glasgow. His wife, Anna died in 1690.
  • 1699 – Alexander Younger (Jr.) is found in Virginia records and said to be 18 years old, which would place his birth in 1681.
  • 1704 – Alexander’s son, Thomas Younger, born about this time based on the fact that when Alexander wrote his will in 1725, he indicated that Thomas was to be his executor which indicates that Thomas was 21 years of age.
  • 1725 – Alexander Younger (Jr.) writes his will in Essex Co., VA, referring to his brother Andrew in Scotland.
  • 1727 – Alexander Younger’s will is probated in Essex Co., VA.

This engraving, below, shows the High Church in Glasgow in 1693.  This would have been about 100 years after William Younger lived, given that he was born sometime before 1580, and not far removed from the time that William’s son, Alexander and his grandson, Thomas, died in Glasgow, in about 1687 and 1695, respectively.  This is also likely the church where their funeral rites were carried out, and it is likely where they are buried as well, although their gravestones, if they ever had one, surely don’t remain today.

The next generation, Alexander, the immigrant was born, probably in Glasgow, probably in 1681, so this is what Glasgow would have looked like about the time he left for America.

glasgow

The following photo is of the College of Glasgow in the late 1660, with Blackfriars Church on land granted to them in 1246, shown on the right.  Alexander, born in the early 1600s and his son, Thomas born in 1652 would have looked upon this very scene.

glasgow college 1660

Below, engraving of Glasgow Cathedral and neighborhood in 1811.

glasgow cathedral 1811

glasgow cathedral 2

Here is the Glasgow Precinct in 1574.  Later maps all show graveyards by the churches and in fact that may be what the “Yairds” are.

glasgow precinct 1574

This undated engraving shows a communal washing green near the Cathedral, shown in the background.  Our ancestors surely visited this area and did just that.

glasgow washing

The front of the Cathedral today from Cathedral Square.

glasgow cathedral today

The history of the cathedral is linked with that of the city, and is allegedly located where the patron saint of Glasgow, Saint Mungo, built his church. The tomb of the saint is in the lower crypt.

This crypt and the remains of St. Mungo were a much venerated pilgrimage site, so our Younger ancestors would have been very aware of this heritage held within their church.

glasgow crypt

Below, the Crypt of Glasgow Cathedral where Glasgow University was founded.

glasgow crypt univ

Built before the Reformation from the late 12th century onwards and serving as the seat of the Bishop and later the Archbishop of Glasgow, the Cathedral is a superb example of Scottish Gothic architecture. It is also one of the few Scottish medieval churches (and the only medieval cathedral on the Scottish mainland) to have survived the Reformation not unroofed.

Today, the church stands majestic and intact, shown below with the Royal Infirmary, the Cathedral and the Necropolis.

glasgow aerial

Someplace on these lands, the bones of our ancestors surely rest, as our family brought new life into the world, were baptized and married in this church and laid their dead to rest here as well.  It’s from here that our family sprang and Alexander Younger would leave on a ship, from the port of Glasgow, below, about 1700, sailing past the port, Grennock, shown below, to settle in Virginia.  I visited Grennock in the fall of 2013, and it assuredly looks much different today.

glasgow distance

Ponderings In Closing

Sometimes just putting things in order helps to straighten them out and makes otherwise obscured patterns emerge.

One pattern, of note, is the repeated name of Janet in the daughters of the Younger family beginning with Alexander Younger and Margaret Steinson and continuing for the next three generations through Alexander Younger and Rebecca Mills children.  Unfortunately, neither Thomas nor Marcus continued that tradition, or if they did, those children did not survive, but the name Janet does help us connect Alexander Younger in early Virginia with the Younger families in Glasgow, Scotland.  The names of Thomas and Alexander also repeat, as does the name Susannah as a sister to Thomas Younger and a child of both Thomas and Marcus Younger.

From the evidence we have, it appears that the Glasgow Younger family is indeed ours.

Another pattern that emerges is of family groupings moving from the Essex/King and Queen County area of Virginia to Halifax County about the time of the Revolutionary War.  This includes both the Estes and Younger families as well as the Harts, Fergusons and Landrums.

A third pattern seems to be one of belonging to a dissenting religion, in this case, Methodists.  This tale is told by the fact that two of the 3 dissenting ministers in Halifax County were marrying family members of the various Younger families.  This is true of the Marcus, Thomas and William Younger family lines, even though we still don’t know exactly how they are connected.  Hawkins Landrum, one of those dissenting ministers, is buried next to the Marcus Younger land.  The Landrum family also came from Essex County.

A fourth pattern is the connection between the South Boston Younger and Estes families whose lands abut, with the Banister River and Terrible Creek Younger families, some 12 miles distant.  This connection likely reaches back to their common location on the Essex/King and Queen County borders.  Mary Younger and George Estes were married before George’s father, Moses (Jr.), purchased land abutting William Younger, and before we find records of Marcus Younger, Mary’s father, In Halifax County.  In addition, it now appears that George Estes and Mary Younger, daughter of Marcus may have lived on Marcus’s land from the time of their marriage in 1786 until when either Marcus Younger or Moses Estes died, in 1813 and 1815, respectively.  In 1810, they appear to be living with Marcus.

After Marcus Younger’s death in 1815, his land went to son John and in life estate, to daughter Susannah.  George Estes was the eldest son of his father, Moses (Jr.), who died in 1813 and George stood to inherit significantly from that estate.  We do know that later in his life, from at least 1820 on, George and Mary Estes Younger unquestionably did live on the Estes land in South Boston.  On the map below, the path from Estes Street in South Boston is shown to Younger Road, running through and north of Halifax, where the courthouse stands.

Halifax map2

Additional records that could well illuminate the Hart connection to this family may be available in Essex County.  I checked the chancery suit index at the library of Virginia for Essex County, and no Younger, Hart or Estes suits are old enough to be relevant to these families. It does, however, beg the question of who these Youngers in Essex County in the 1800s belong to, since Alexander had only 3 sons and we know the location of all 3.  Thomas moved to Halifax County, John died shortly after his father, and James went to Chatham Co., NC.

As with many things in life, and all things genealogy, answered questions beget new ones.   We answered quite a few questions recently, including the long-burning question of whether Thomas and Marcus Younger were related.  They were in some way.  We also have DNA evidence that indicates that Marcus’s wife, Susannah, was a Hart, or related to the Hart line.

With this information, of course, we have simply substituted new burning questions for old ones.  We still don’t know who Marcus Younger’s father was, nor his mother, and we may never know.  We do know that the men who his Y DNA matches also don’t match their family, or anyone else for that matter.  I can’t help but think of a traveling salesman, or in that timeframe, the peddler or maybe an itinerant minister.  Were it not so frustrating, it would be quite humorous really.  I’m sure our ancestors, who, of course, know the answers, are all having a good chuckle!

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Disclosure

I receive a small contribution when you click on some of the links to vendors in my articles. This does NOT increase the price you pay but helps me to keep the lights on and this informational blog free for everyone. Please click on the links in the articles or to the vendors below if you are purchasing products or DNA testing.

Thank you so much.

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Bennett Greenspan – The Future of Genetic Genealogy

Bennett SCGA 2014 v2

Bennett Greenspan, one of the founders of Family Tree DNA, spoke about “The Future of Genetic Genealogy” at the Southern California Genealogy Society conference this week.  The SCGS has been gracious enough to provide a video of the livestream.

High points of Bennett’s presentation include:

  1. There will be a new Y SNP matching capability released in the next few days.
  2. “Regulatory issues are larger issues than the science.” Bennett discusses “armwrestling with the FDA.”
  3. If prices of SNP chips that test over 2 million locations don’t drop substantially in the next couple of years, then genealogy testing likely will not utilize the next generation of SNP chip, but will move directly to full genome sequence testing. This may happen in the 3-5 year range but will, for sure in the 5-10 year range.

Bennett talked quite a bit about privacy and what privacy is in this technology era, expectations and how privacy expectations may affect future DNA testing.  Be sure to watch the video. It’s always interesting to hear Bennett, functionally the father of genetic genealogy, speak about this industry and the future.

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Disclosure

I receive a small contribution when you click on some of the links to vendors in my articles. This does NOT increase the price you pay but helps me to keep the lights on and this informational blog free for everyone. Please click on the links in the articles or to the vendors below if you are purchasing products or DNA testing.

Thank you so much.

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Edinburgh Castle and a Penannular

Queensferry

This morning we awoke to a sunrise over the sea outside of Queensferry which is where the port for Edinburgh is located.

sunrise queensferry

Oh yes, and Edinburgh is not pronounced Edinborough, it’s pronounced Edinburg, or at least similarly with the Scottish brogue.  The Scottish brogue is comforting, homey.  It feels like the language of the people.

Today began with tendering into the port.  That means that the ship can’t get close enough to actually dock.  So they took 3 or 4 lifeboats and lowered them, amongst much swearing in languages I don’t understand, but it was still quite recognizable as such.  When they had trouble getting the flag raised on those boats, it didn’t do much to instill confidence.  In any case, we did get to port, eventually, but we were an hour late for our tour to begin.  Here’s our Carnival cruise ship, anchored beyond the bridge and we are standing in port

queensferry bridge

We were greeted one final time in port by bagpipers.  I’ve enjoyed those greetings so much.  Music touches the soul in ways nothing else can.  This ancestral music is ingrained in the lives of my ancestors, and therefore, in me.

The earliest known human habitation in the Edinburgh area is from Cramond where evidence was found of a Mesolithic camp-site dated to circa 8500 BC. Traces of later Bronze Age and Iron Age settlements have been found on Castle Rock, Arthur’s Seat, Craiglockhart Hill and the Pentland Hills. People have been here for a very long time.

By the time the Romans arrived in Lothian at the end of the 1st century AD, they discovered a Celtic Britonnic tribe whose name they recorded as the Votadini. At some point before the 7th century AD, the Gododdin, who were presumably descendants of the Votadini, built the hill fort of Din Eidyn or Etin. Although its exact location has not been identified, it seems more than likely they would have chosen a commanding position.

“Edin”, the root of the city’s name, is most likely of Brittonic Celtic origin, from the Cumbric language or a variation of it that would have been spoken by the earliest known people of the area. It appears to derive from the place name Eidyn mentioned in the Old Welsh epic poem Y Gododdin.

In 1603, King James VI of Scotland succeeded to the English throne, uniting the crowns of Scotland and England in a personal union known as the Union of the Crowns, though Scotland remained, in all other respects, a separate kingdom. In 1638, King Charles I’s attempt to introduce Anglican church forms in Scotland encountered stiff Presbyterian opposition culminating in the conflicts of the Wars of the Three Kingdoms. Subsequent Scottish support for Charles Stuart’s restoration to the throne of England resulted in Edinburgh’s occupation by Oliver Cromwell’s Commonwealth of England forces – the New Model Army – in 1650.

Edinburgh old map

In the 17th century, the boundaries of Edinburgh were still defined by the city’s defensive town walls, which you can see, along with the castle, in the drawing from 1670 by Wenceslas Hollar, above. As a result, expansion took the form of the houses increasing in height to accommodate a growing population. Buildings of 11 stories or more were common, and have been described as forerunners of the modern-day skyscraper. Most of these old structures were later replaced by the predominantly Victorian buildings seen in today’s Old Town.

By the first half of the 1700s, despite rising prosperity evidenced by its growing importance as a banking centre, Edinburgh was being described as one of the most densely populated, overcrowded and unsanitary towns in Europe. Visitors were struck by the fact that the various social classes shared the same urban space, even inhabiting the same tenement buildings; although here a form of social segregation did prevail, whereby shopkeepers and tradesmen tended to occupy the cheaper-to-rent cellars and garrets, while the more well-to-do professional classes occupied the more expensive middle storeys.

A census conducted by the Edinburgh presbytery in 1592 recorded a population of 8,003 adults spread equally north and south of the High Street which runs along the spine of the ridge sloping down from the Castle. The population rose rapidly, from 49,000 in 1751 to 136,000 in 1831, primarily due to migration from rural areas.

In the second half of the 1700s, Edinburgh was at the heart of the Scottish Enlightenment, and had become a major intellectual center, earning it the nickname “Athens of the North” because of its many classical buildings and reputation for learning, similar to Ancient Athens. The University of Edinburgh was established by royal charter in 1583 preceded by the Royal College of Physicians in 1506.

My ancestor, George McNiel and his two brothers were supposed to have studied at the University of Edinburgh for the ministry before sailing for America where they arrived about 1750. He was born about 1720, so if this is true, he would have been in Edinburgh between about 1735 and 1750, or so. Below is an engraving from about 1753, so this would have been what George McNiel would have seen, if he was in Edinburgh.

edinburgh castle

We arrived in Edinburgh about half an hour after leaving the port and drove through the city to the old town to visit the castle.  Edinburgh castle was a heavily fortified castle built on a massive granite hill in the center of the city.

Edinburgh city

Surrounding the city are actually 3 volcanoes, dormant now, but giving great height and character to the city itself.  One rises in the middle of the city.

In this photo of old town from above, you can see one of the volcanoes as well.

Edinburgh volcano

The castle itself holds, among other things, the Scottish crown jewels. I love mysteries, and there is a good one that goes along with the crown jewels.  In 1707, the crown jewels were sealed in a box.  I don’t remember the political problem at hand, but in 1818, Scotland’s sovereignty was restored and the box was opened.  When it was opened, there was the crown of course, and the sword and the scepter, but there was also another scepter that they have absolutely no idea why was included.  Personally, I think it was Merlin’s!

The oldest part of the castle and indeed, the oldest building in Edinburgh is St. Margaret’s chapel at the very top built by one of the earliest monarchs to honor his mother who died in 1097.  Very old and very small but so very full of history.

edinburgh st margarets

This is probably where Alexander Campbell said his final prayers in this lifetime. I don’t know if he was my direct ancestor, but I do know that he was my relative.

edinburgh castle chapel

The Kings were Celtic, but some of the wives became Christian and started bestowing names like Richard, James and Alexander on the sons instead of traditional Celtic, pagan, names.

Mary Queen of Scots gave birth here to the eventual King James I of England in the room known as the Mary Room or the Birth Chamber in June of 1566, which caused me to wonder about the DNA of the royal family and royal houses.

As I’ve traveled throughout the British Isles and learned about the history of the monarchy, it has become apparent that while the British monarchy was considered well, British, “the monarchy” as a whole was much more. In fact, the monarchs of the various countries and regions made it a point to marry strategically so that politics and power would come and go with spouses. So, I had to wonder, has anyone actually looked at and identified the DNA of the various “houses” of European royalty? How closely related are they? I’ll make it a point to do some research on this when I return home.

This castle was extremely well fortified.  It had 6 different gates at different levels, draw and drop bridges, a mote of course and it sat on top of a huge granite mountain, to begin with.  Here’s the castle from another angle.

edinburgh castle on hill

And a view across all of Edinburgh, from the castle compound.

edinburgh from castle

All of the heads of the clans would come here to meet.  I know my ancestors were here. The Campbells would assuredly have been included. They would have arrived for important meetings and walked on these very cobblestones where we step today.

edinburgh castle grounds

It’s easy to see through their eyes in a place like this as I walk in their footsteps.

Edinburgh castle argyll tower

We know, beyond a doubt that the Campbells were here, because the portcullis gate, the main entrance, above, is situated beneath the state prison, better known as Argyll’s Tower, as the 9th Earl of Argyll, Archibald Campbell, the Marquis of Argyll, was imprisoned there prior to his execution in 1685 by “the maiden.” I didn’t know this until after my visit when I was doing research on the history of Edinburgh castle. Amazing that I was in the right place and literally walked where my ancestors had been, and didn’t even know it.

Below, the Earl and his second wife, Lady Anne Mackenzie. His first wife was Lady Mary Stuart who was the mother of his 7 children, including son, Archibald, the 10th Earl and first Duke of Argyll.  You can see the Campbell pedigree chart here.

Campbell, Archibald

The Earl was buried in Greyfriars Kirkyard, ironically, within view of the Castle (in the background, below) where he met his demise.

Edinburgh greyfriars kirkyard

From the castle, we walked down High Street, the old town, now known as the “miracle mile” which is where all of the shopping is located.

Edinburgh high street

Jim and I found a Starbucks and had a nice coffee and then did some shopping. I bought myself something very Scottish, a penannular. This brooch or pin is used to pin and hold wool scarves. Mine is antique and beautiful. This one is from the National Museum of Scotland.

penannular

Below, a contemporary penannular at CeltArts (which is available to purchase) shows how a penannular is used. By the way, these aren’t just for women. Men wear them with the scarves slung over their shoulders.

Penannular tartan

One of my favorite things in old cities is the little alleyways between buildings that are connected above the alleyway.  They weren’t alleyways originally, but now they are both too narrow and too steep for anything but foot traffic.  I took pictures of several. Many are just wide enough for a person.

edinburgh alley

advocates close

In Edinburgh, there are several private schools for children and there is a lot of academic competition to be admitted.  There are two from which it’s believed that the inspiration for Hogwarts was derived.

Hogwartz

It’s a beautiful city and the ultimate in what it means to be Scottish. It’s not unusual to see men walking around in kilts as a business suit, complete with kilt, coat and tie, or sometimes kilts and sweatshirts.  Kilts, here, are the ultimate in manly. For those who want to see what I mean, here’s a link for you. Yes, it’s family friendly, but word of warning, you’ll change your mind about kilts forever.

Edinburgh kilt

I had to laugh, because in Scotland, I’m reminded of this cartoon about restroom confusion.

On the return trip, our guide talked about history and then we were back at the docks.  The bridges here are very interesting and artful.  One, the suspension bridge at left below, reminds me of the bridge connecting the lower peninsula of Michigan with the upper peninsula at Mackinaw City and could be its twin.

Edinburgh bridges panorama

Our towel guy tonight wears a celtic tartan scarf with the beautiful penannular I purchased in the wonderful little antique shop below Edinburgh castle as we wandered.  I don’t know why these penannulars enchanted me so, but they did.  Probably because these reach back in time, probably to the beginning of Celts and shawls, to hold them in place.  They aren’t contemporary and they have character already.  They are quintessentially Scottish as well, and are heirlooms.  The shop had a few new ones too, and they are shinier and unscathed, but the antique ones had character. My ancestors wore penannulars, certainly, and now, so will I.

Our towel guy also has a little book from Edinburgh Castle chapel and a small contemporary watercolor painting of the castle.

Edinburgh towel guy

British Monarchy’s DNA

After I returned home, I set out to see if anyone had done any genetic work on the DNA of the British monarchy.

The answer, it turns out, is yes. In August 2013, Bradley Larkin published a paper about the Y DNA of the British Monarchy in honor of the birth of the Prince of Cambridge.

Bradley said: “A review was made of existing genetic genealogy findings that infer characteristics of the Y-DNA of members of the British Monarchy. Nine sustained Y-DNA lineages since the year 927 CE were noted as dynastic groups. Haplogroup and haplotype characteristics of three of the dynasties were presented with two more dynasties noted as testable but unpublished. Cultural and geographical origins of these dynasties were considered as context for their DNA haplogroups. Specimen candidates for further testing were identified noting that some will require Ancient DNA (aDNA) recovery and analysis.”

Bradley identified the dynasties of the British monarchy beginning in the year 927 and ending in 2013, as shown below.

  • Mountbatten/Romanov
  • Hannover
  • Windsor
  • Stuart
  • Tudor
  • Plantagenet
  • Blois
  • Wessex
  • Norman
  • Knytlinga (Viking)

Bradley then researched each dynasty and lineage. If lines have been tested, he provides the results. Several lines have no male descendants, so for those, we would need ancient DNA. The connections and interconnections are fascinating.

To view the detail and summary data about each dynasty, read Bradley’s paper here, especially the summary table near the end.

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Disclosure

I receive a small contribution when you click on some of the links to vendors in my articles. This does NOT increase the price you pay but helps me to keep the lights on and this informational blog free for everyone. Please click on the links in the articles or to the vendors below if you are purchasing products or DNA testing.

Thank you so much.

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Ancestry.com Discontinues Y and mtDNA Tests and Closes Data Base

ancestry to ftdna

Ancestry.com has not been actively selling Y and mtDNA tests for some time now.  However, today Ancestry announced the official discontinuance of those tests and that as of September 5th, their Y and mtDNA data bases will also be shuttered – meaning that the results will no longer be accessible for those who tested or for anyone wanting to do a comparison.

This is very sad news indeed for the genetic genealogy community, especially given that Ancestry has in the past purchased other vendors such as Relative Genetics and incorporated their results into their data base.

For anyone who tested their Y DNA with Ancestry, now is the time to transfer those result to the Family Tree DNA data base, now the last vendor left standing who provides those tests along with a comparison data base.  This is easy to do and you can be a part of the Family Tree DNA community, availing yourself of their surname projects for only $19.

If you want to see your matches, you can upgrade your kit from Ancestry’s 33 or 46 markers to Family Tree DNA’s standard markers for another $39 at the same time you transfer your Ancestry results.  This also has the added benefit of having your actual DNA in the lab at Family Tree DNA where it will be archived for 25 years.  I’m already hearing moans from people whose family DNA is only at Ancestry, and the original tester has passed away.

In fact, if you don’t transfer your results from Ancestry now, or before September 5th, you will lose your opportunity as your Y and mtDNA results will no longer be available at Ancestry in any format, according to their FAQ.

Ancestry states that this change does not affect their autosomal DNA testing, and in fact, that’s where they want to focus, at least for now.  Unfortunately, the shuttering of their Y and mtDNA data bases calls into question their commitment to the genetics aspect of the genealogy industry.  Autosomal DNA testing will be a priority as long as it’s profitable, just like Y and mtDNA has turned out to be.

I would suggest while you are transferring, you might also want to take advantage of this opportunity to also transfer your Ancestry autosomal results to Family Tree DNA for $69.  You can fish in a second match pool and Family Tree DNA offers many tools to participants that Ancestry does not offer.

If you’re not inclined to transfer your results to Family Tree DNA, at least avail yourself of the two free data bases, www.ysearch.org for Y results and www.mitosearch.org for mtDNA.  At least your results won’t be entirely lost forever.

I understand that Ancestry doesn’t want to sell the Y and mtDNA products any longer, but I would think that maintaining the current Y and mtDNA data bases in a static state for the tens of thousands of people who have spent a nontrivial amount of money DNA testing, and allowing comparisons, would be well worthwhile in terms of customer loyalty if nothing else.  Customers are viewing this move as abandonment and a betrayal of their trust, and it begs the question of what will eventually happen to autosomal results and matches at Ancestry.  If you’re going to test at Ancestry, make sure you also test at Family Tree DNA so your actual DNA is available there as well.

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Disclosure

I receive a small contribution when you click on some of the links to vendors in my articles. This does NOT increase the price you pay but helps me to keep the lights on and this informational blog free for everyone. Please click on the links in the articles or to the vendors below if you are purchasing products or DNA testing.

Thank you so much.

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Invergordon, Braveheart, Urquhart Castle and my Birthday

Today, we’re in Invergordon, Scotland and we began the day by being greeted by oil rigs.  They “put” them here in this frith (fjord) for repair and refurbishing when they aren’t needed in the North Sea.  So they, the oil rigs, move around this frith all the time.  Quite interesting. You know, if you tended to drink a bit too much and you woke up to find that the oil rig had “moved,” well, let’s just say the results could be quite funny!

oil rigs

It’s raining, again, or more accurately, still, but hopefully, I broke the rain chain because I just gave up and bought a rain hat today.  Actually, it’s pretty cool and very Scottish with the Campbell tartan inside for a lining, so I’m really good with it – but I was also desperate so it could have been Mickey Mouse and I would have been OK.  So, I bought myself a birthday present!

Do not underestimate the importance of a rain hat here!  The umbrella is OK and sometimes necessary when it’s pouring, but it has its own set of challenges, especially with a bunch of other people with umbrellas in a small space.

I wasn’t going to share this photo, because, it’s, well, ummm, not terribly flattering, but then I had a change of heart. I think retaining the ability to laugh at one’s self is quite important – and truly – I love this hat!

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Besides that, somewhat outrageous hats are a distinctly British thing.  When in Rome…

Kate’s got nothing on me now:)

kate hat

Our first stop was Cawdor Castle, another Campbell Castle, where I found the rain hat in the gift shop.

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The Campbells were extremely influential in the Highlands for hundreds of years.  Some say they were the most influential family, others say it was their archrivals, the McDonalds.  In any case, we’re about at the waist of Scotland, looking at a map, not terribly far as the crow flies from Inverary, the Campbell seat, but it’s across the mountain Highlands.  Not a problem for a Campbell, but a big problem for a bus, which is why we sailed around the upper part of Scotland of course.  These trees outside of Cawdor Castle were old and beautiful.  I loved them.  Just think of the history they have witnessed.  It’s certainly possible that some of my ancestors may have stood here while visiting this castle, among these trees, when they were much smaller.  If they could only speak.

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Cawdor Castle was a self-guided tour and it was interesting in that it was a Campbell castle, but it was one of the newer lines and not mine.  It was raining so the gardens weren’t really easily viewable, but I did venture into the side garden and found a very interesting ‘gazing ball’ for lack of anything else to call it. It’s not small – at least a foot taller than I am.

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This is very cool and I’m sure, very expensive as well.

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The story of the Cawdor thorn tree is also quite interesting.  It’s said that the man who build Cawdor Castle in the 1300s, who was not a Campbell (the Campbell line acquired this castle by marriage sometime later), tied a package of some sort to an ox and let it wander around.  Wherever is lay down is where he was going to build his castle and the ox lay down under a thorn tree.  The castle was built around the tree and it was venerated for decades until it died. Now it’s enclosed and you can walk around it inside.  However, the myth grew with time and became that this was the tree that St. Columba planted.  That’s believed not to be true.  In any case, the “tree” is still there. This photo is from the official Cawdor Castle Tour site as it’s quite dark in that part of the castle and my photos didn’t come out well.

cawdor thorn tree

After leaving Cawdor Castle, we traveled across the Highlands and Moors. I can’t say they were stunningly beautiful, but they were rich with vegetation and somewhat “purple,” a very distinctive color.

scottish moors

We arrived at Loch Ness, famous of course for Nessie, and visited Urquhart Castle, a very old castle, now in ruins, on the shores of Loch Ness.  And no, we didn’t see Nessie, but of course, we looked!

Loch ness

Urquhart castle’s beautiful ruins stand guard over Loch Ness.

urquhart

You can easily see parts of the rest of the distant highlands from Urquhart castle across Loch Ness.

urquhart loch ness

The name Urquhart derives from the 7th-century form Airdchartdan, itself a mix of Gaelic air (by) and Old Welsh cardden (thicket or wood). Speculation that Urquhart may have been the fortress of Bridei son of Maelchon, king of the northern Picts, led Professor Leslie Alcock to undertake excavations in 1983. Adomnán’s Life of Columba records that St. Columba visited Bridei some time between 562 and 586, though little geographical detail is given. Adomnán also relates that during the visit, Columba converted a Pictish nobleman named Emchath, who was on his deathbed, his son Virolec, and their household, at a place called Airdchartdan. The excavations, supported by radiocarbon dating, indicate that the rocky knoll at the south-west corner of the castle had been the site of an extensive fort between the 5th and 11th centuries

It wasn’t until another several hundred years had passed until we hear of Urquhart again, now a castle or fort defending Loch Ness.  It’s believed that the current castle was built about 1200. It’s first documented in 1296 when it was captured.

urquhart map

Urquhart Castle stands just about dead center in the upper portion of Scotland, which would have been the center of the Picts kingdom based on this map from Wiki.

pict kingdom map

For the next 500+ years, Urquhart was a very important castle, and saw action many times, in particular, with the McDonald clan who attacked from the west of Scotland as well as a defense against the Vikings.  Finally, in 1690, the castle could not be held and was abandoned, but not wanting it to fall into enemy hands, they loaded the gatehouse with kegs of gunpowder, lit it, and left Urquhart castle to her fiery fate.

Today, the majestic and picturesque ruins stand guard at Loch Ness, silent sentry, never replaced or rebuilt.

urquhart ruins

Here are Jim and I at the top of the existing turret.

urquhart jim and me

While I felt only a minor connection to Cawdor Castle, I felt very close to Inverary and also to the ruins of Urquhart Castle.  I know that my ancestors were here, fought here, maybe died here, either attacking or defending it, or maybe just visiting at other times.  Of course, this stands to reason, logically, as I had many Scottish ancestors, so that they were here would come as no surprise.  It felt good to stand where they stood and look at what they saw.  It connects me to them, whoever they were.  They may be nameless, but they are not forgotten.

Our ancestors are our own personal version of Braveheart. Randall Wallace, the writer of the screenplay, has acknowledged Blind Harry‘s 15th century epic poem, The Acts and Deeds of Sir William Wallace, Knight of Elderslie as a primary inspiration for the film. So, whether it’s entirely historically accurate or not, it is based on the history of this timeframe. Here’s the trailer. One thing is for sure, this region was constantly embroiled in a fight of some sort – between tribes – between rulers – between countries. And every able-bodied man fought. So warfare is the legacy of every family from Scotland.

Who were my Scottish ancestral families and what do we know about their roots, genetically? All of these families who have tested are members of haplogroup R.

  • The Campbells descend from ancient Scots, perhaps Picts, and carry the SNP, L1335, which may be Pictist.
  • The McDowell’s are subgroup L21 which provides general but not specific information about lineage and location.
  • My Andrew McKee/Mackie line out of Gloucester and Washington County, Virginia has Not been tested, but I will provide a scholarship to any direct male (who carries the surname, and therefore the Y chromosome) from this line.
  • My Hugh McMahon line found in York Co., PA by 1745 also has not been tested. He is alleged to have been christened on March 2, 1699 in Clones, County Monaghan, Ireland, but I don’t know that this is the same Hugh McMahon. In any case, I will provide a scholarship to any direct male descendant of Hugh McMahon. In the McMahon project, there is a County Monaghan cluster which is DF21, a subset of L21. If this is the correct McMahon line, then they are of the Three Collas lineage. The McMahon DNA project administrators have written a wonderful article about how the McMahon line ties into the Colla lineage and what it all means to genetic genealogists….now if I only knew if this was my line!
  • The McNiel line is descended from Niall of the 9 Hostages and carries SNP L222 which identifies that line.
  • My Thomas McSpadden line has not been tested, but I will provide a scholarship for any direct male McSpadden descendant of the Thomas McSpadden line found in Washington County, Virginia.
  • My Younger line of Halifax, Essex and King and Queen County of Virginia is L21, with no subset indicated.

The Highland men were extremely hardy.  It’s no wonder that they welcomed the remoteness of the American frontier and often found a connection with the Native people who were their neighbors.  I bet the warrior gene is found is higher proportion in both populations than in the rest of the people. It would be an interesting study.

For days now, we’ve been seeing sheep.  I didn’t know until today that sheep weren’t native to the Scottish Highlands, but a special kind of highlands cattle were.  However, in the 1700s, sheep were introduced, but were very controversial because sheep require about 4 times the space as cattle.  The landowners forced the tenants to have sheep and forced may tenants out entirely.  There was no more land to be had – so many immigrated to America, especially those not the first son, meaning the inheriting son.  So perhaps it was sheep who drove my ancestors to America, although several of my Scottish ancestors clearly came through the Irish plantations on their way.

Interestingly enough, today I found a field of sheep who I’m sure represent my entire family.  Most sheep here are white.  Very occasionally, you see one black one in the field.  I found the black sheep jackpot today.

All black sheep. Yep, my family, I’m sure of it.

black sheep

From there, our bus wound its way back to the ship across the mountains and across the moors.  It seems impossible that we had been gone for more than 8 hours.  Scotland is simply enchanting.

Our towel animal tonight had my rain hat, of course, and two birthday cards, one from Jim and one from Carnival.

urquhart towel animal

This was a great birthday, feeling the presence of Braveheart and my ancestral families at Urquhart Castle – and of course, my Campbell rainhat.

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Disclosure

I receive a small contribution when you click on some of the links to vendors in my articles. This does NOT increase the price you pay but helps me to keep the lights on and this informational blog free for everyone. Please click on the links in the articles or to the vendors below if you are purchasing products or DNA testing.

Thank you so much.

DNA Purchases and Free Transfers

Genealogy Services

Genealogy Research

Native American DNA Projects

Native DNA in Feathers

I’m often asked about projects that are for or include Native American DNA results.  Please note that different project administrators have different criteria for admission to a project.  Some require definitive proof of descent, some require no documentation at all.  This is entirely left to the discretion of the project administrators.  Therefore, you should NEVER assume that because you match someone in one of these projects that you have Native heritage.  There are various ways to prove Native heritage using DNA which I’ve discussed in the article, “Proving Native American Ancestry Using DNA.”

Furthermore, some of these projects aren’t exclusively for Native American descendants, but you may find Native descendants or families among the project members because of the topic or where the project is focused.

Regarding haplogroup projects.  Some haplogroups include both people who are and who are not Native.  Check with the particular project to understand the nuances.  In many cases, research through the projects is ongoing.

If you know of additional projects which should be added to this list, please let me know.

Native American, First Nations or Aboriginal DNA Projects

Acadia Metis Mothers
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AcadiaMetisMothers/default.aspx

Algonquian East DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/algonquian_east/default.aspx

American Indian DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AmericanIndian/

AmerIndian Ancestry out of Acadia Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AcadianAmerIndian/

AmerIndian Mexico (Southwest US and Mexico)
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MexicoAmerindian/

Cherokee DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/CherokeeDNAProject/default.aspx

Mitochondrial American Indian Founder Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AmerindFoundermtDNA/default.aspx

Mothers of Acadian mtDNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/mothersofacadia/default.aspx
Some Native results

Native People of Southwest Virginia
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/napeopleofswvirginia/

Piqua/Shawnee – no public website – contact admins below
cavetank@aol.com, tankerkh@uc.edu, ewest14@woh.rr.com

Robeson Co., NC American Indian (formerly Lumbee)
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/robesonconcamericanindian/about

Tuscarora
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Tuscarora/

Waccamaw DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/CapefearIndians/default.aspx

Wesorts-Piscataway
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Wesorts-Piscataway

Wiccocomico Native American DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/wiccocomico/default.aspx

Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroup Projects

Haplogroup A Mitochondrial DNA
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/haplogroupAmtDNA/
Note – Native American DNA is a subgroup of haplogroup A.  See this link for specifics.

A2 Mitochondrial DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA_A2
A2 is known to be Native.

A4 Mitochondrial DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/A4-mtDNA/
Haplogroup A4 is known to be Native.

B2 Mitochondrial DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt-DNA-B/
B2 is known to be Native.

Haplogroup C Mitochondrial DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/C_Haplogroup_mtDNA
Subgroups of haplogroup C are known to be Native.

Haplogroup D Mitochondrial DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/D/
Subgroups of haplogroup D are known to be Native.

Haplogroup X Mitochondrial DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/x/
Subgroups of haplogroup X are known to be Native.

Haplogroup X2b4 Mitochondrial DNA Project
http://familytreedna.com/public/x2b4mtdna
X2b4 is currently being studied to determine if it is Native or has a Native component.

Y Haplogroup Projects

Y Haplogroup C
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Chaplogroup/
Subgroups of haplogroup C are known to be Native.

Haplogroup C-P39
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ydna_C-P39/#sthash.cKkws2cd.dpbs
This SNP defined Native Americans within haplogroup C.

American Indian Haplogroup Q1a3a1 – QM3
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Amerind%20Y/?/publicwebsite.aspx?vgroup=Amerind+Y

Related Topics

You may find Native families listed in these projects.

Caribbean DNA Project
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/caribbeanproject

Cumberland Gap Mitochondrial DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cumberlandgap-mtdna/?/publicwebsite.aspx?vgroup=Cumberlandgap-mtdna

Cumberland Gap Y DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/CumberlandGap-YDNA

Early Chesapeake
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Early_Chesapeake

East Carolina Roots
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/eastcarolinaroots/default.aspx

Melungeons

Click to access MelungeonsMulti-EthnicPeopleFinal.pdf

Mitochondrial DNA of the Middle Appalachians
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA%20of%20Middle%20Appalachians/default.aspx?section=mtresults

New Mexico DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/newmexicoDNA/

North Carolina Early 1700s
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/NorthCarolinaEarly1700s/default.aspx

Puerto Rico DNA Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/puertoricansurname/

Southwestern Virginia Roots
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/SWVirginia

Virginia 1600s
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/va-1600s

Voices in Time
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/voicesintime/

______________________________________________________________

Disclosure

I receive a small contribution when you click on some of the links to vendors in my articles. This does NOT increase the price you pay but helps me to keep the lights on and this informational blog free for everyone. Please click on the links in the articles or to the vendors below if you are purchasing products or DNA testing.

Thank you so much.

DNA Purchases and Free Transfers

Genealogy Services

Genealogy Research

The Reverend George McNiel (c 1720 – 1805), Frontier Baptist Preacher – 52 Ancestors #21

Do you ever save old letters?  Thank goodness someone saved this one!

This letter is 116 years old and shares with us valuable information that we would otherwise have never known.  Some of the information in this letter has been substantiated with historical research.  For example, we know for sure that George McNeil (also spelled McNiel) was a Baptist preacher.  There are many records that confirm that.  But without this letter, we would not have been able to connect the William McNiel/McNeal who was a Revolutionary War soldier in Spotsylvania County, Virginia with my ancestor, William McNiel, son of Reverend George McNiel.

McNeal, William rev war

Unfortunately, it appears that William McNiel died just before the legislation passed in 1832 to provide pensions for Revolutionary War soldiers.  Had he and his wife not died before 1832, his pension application would have told us a great deal more.  To date, we have been unable to find the location of his original land in Hancock County (then Claiborne County), Tennessee.  He is assuredly buried there in a little family cemetery, and I’d love to place a Revolutionary War marker for him.  We live today in freedom because of the sacrifices of these early pioneers, our forefathers and foremothers.

The letter was written on May 28, 1898 in Maple Springs, Wilkes, North Carolina. It is recorded in the book, “George Michael Eller and Descendants of His in America,” by James W. Hook, 1957, New Haven, CN, pg. 400-404. [This book is on-line in Ancestry.com’s Card Catalogue and in many libraries.] The following letter was written in 1898 by George W. McNiel Sr., son of Thomas McNiel and grandson of Rev. George McNiel. It helps to name and identify descendants of Rev. McNiel.

Maple Springs, Wilkes Co., N. C.

May 28, 1898.

‘Mr. W. H. Eller,’

Dear Cousin and Friend:

With respect to you I will answer your kind letter of June 25, 1896, hoping that you will excuse my neglect of not answering sooner. I will gladly give you all the information concerning the McNeils in Wilkes that I am able.

My grandfather, George McNeil, came from Scotland and his two brothers, John and Thomas, also came from Scotland. They left their native land, looking back with love as long as they could see a green leaf, on account of their religious freedom. George McNeil, my grandfather, came into the State of Virginia and married a Miss Coats, and as the country settled up, being a Baptist minister by profession, was called for to constitute Baptist churches and to attend as pastor of Baptist churches.

He came into Grayson County, Va., after which he came into Wilkes County, N. C., and constituted and attended churches here. He attended more or less churches down the Yadkin River. He was pastor of a church near the head of the Yadkin River. He lived in Wilkes County in about two and one-half miles of New Hope church on the north fork of Lewis’ Fork Creek.

He was afterwards registrar of deeds of Wilkes County (this was about the date of 1802). His son, William McNeil, volunteered in the war of Revolution, and his son, Joseph McNeil, said he would volunteer and go with William, but he was not old enough.

(Rev.) George McNeil and wife lived near the farm of Esq. Henry Lenderman, late deceased; from this union six sons and two daughters were raised, viz.

John, who married a Cleveland and who lived near Greenville, S. C., where Col. Benj. Cleveland, the hero of King’s Mountain, lived; my uncle.

William McNeil, moved to the State of Tennessee, Clayborn Co.

My uncle, James McNeil, settled in Ashe County, but moved to Redie’s River in Wilkes and married a Miss Shepherd – they raised six sons and three daughters.

Uncle Joseph McNeil lived on the homestead of his father and married a Miss Wilson and they raised three sons and three daughters. The Rev. James McNeil, his second son, was well known by his friends as a Baptist minister, living near Moravian Falls, N. C., at the time of his death, and was a faithful and respected preacher of great ability. The eldest son of Jos. McNeil, being named Larkin, married a Ferguson and raised three sons named respectively, Franklin, John and Milton; Franklin being a soldier of 1861. The Rev. Milton McNeil, and family are well known in the county of Wilkes.

My uncle, Benj. McNeil living on South Lewis Fork, three miles from old Lewis Fork Baptist Church, married a Miss Lips and raised seven sons and one daughter, all moving west but Enoch McNeil, who died near Moravian Falls in the year of 1865 or 1866.

My father, Thos. McNeil, married a Miss Parsons, being a daughter of Rev. James Parsons, of Surry County, living on New River, near the Old Fields in Ashe County, and was a soldier in the war of 1812. He labored as a Baptist minister in Ashe and Wilkes Counties.

You stated that you wanted me to give information about any ministers living at that time. I will give the names of Rev. Thomas Proffit and Rev. Smith Ferguson, who won many friends.

My father, Thos. McNeil, and my mother raised three sons and three daughters. The oldest being named James and being near fifty years of age, who died near Salisbury in the service of the Southern States on Feb. 16, 1855. The second son, Jesse McNeil, died from typhoid fever at his father’s home on North Lewis Fork on the date of June 8, 1830, being near twenty years of age. I, the youngest. My father, Thos. McNeil, lived to the great age of eighty-three years. He died September 8, 1865, He had two sisters not yet mentioned in this article.

Their names were: Elizabeth and Polly respectively. Elizabeth married Robt. Bingham, of the State of Virginia, being a Revolutionary soldier and living once near Hall’s Store, Stony Hill. They raised three sons named respectively William, Joel and George; Esq. George Bingham, of Watauga County, raised five sons, one of whom, Maj. Harvey Bingham, well known by many friends, went to the Senate of North Carolina in 1876. Mr. Thos. Bingham, having many friends, represented Watauga County three times in Legislature of North Carolina. Esq. John Bingham and Dr. Philmore Bingham are known by many friends.

My aunt, Polly McNeil, married Mr. Henry Miller, a son of Uncle William Miller, who was a soldier of the Revolutionary war, and lived on the farm where Mr. F. D. Hall now lives on the south fork of Lewis Fork Creek. They raised two daughters, one married a Parks, the other a Lankford. Mr. Harry Miller lived on a farm in Caldwell County on the Yadkin River, moving from there to the State of Illinois; Uncle Henry Miller’s grandaughter wrote to me giving her name as Mrs. Clarisa Rebecca Parks.

My uncle, James McNeil, raised his family on Redie’s River, having six sons and three daughters, the oldest named Larkin; others were John, George, William, Oliver and Eli. Fanny, married Capt. Simeon Eller, Rebecca, married the Rev. John Vannoy, a Baptist minister well known in Wilkes and Ashe; the younger sister being Nancy and married Edward J. Dancy, who lived in the town of Wilkesboro about the date of 1840. I further state that I was acquainted with Esq. John McNeil, Jr. He lived in Overton County, Tenn. He visited North Carolina about the date of 1840. His grandfather was uncle James McNeil, Sr. His widowed mother was a Miss Vannoy. He has or had four brothers, viz; John, Jesse, Neil and James.

The Rev. John Vannoy, a Baptist minister who married Miss Rebecca McNeil, lived in Ashe County on Beaver Creek. He was pastor of the old Baptist church at Beaver Creek many years. They had many friends as far as they were known, and raised quite a large family of children, four sons and four daughters, viz.: Jesse, William, James and Wiley, Mary, Louisa, Tilda. Mr. James Eller, of Wilkes County, married Louisa and Henry Hardin married Miss Tilda. The latter named moved to Colorado. Mr. Jesse Vannoy was in the late war of the ’60’s and died there.

So I will not write any more. I have given the most important history according to my knowledge of the McNeils in Wilkes. With my best wishes I will now close.

Your friend and cousin,

G. W. McNeil, Sr.

This old letter provided the family with a great deal of information otherwise not available, and certainly not available some 116 years later.

What I wouldn’t give to have a letter like this for all of my lines.

The Reverend’s Children

In summary, the Reverend George McNiel (spelled variously other ways including McNeil and both ways with double ls) was born about 1720 and died on June 7, 1805 in Parsonsville, Wilkes County, NC, at home.  He is very likely buried on his own land.

The spelling of McNiel always generates discussion.  George’s version is spelled McNiel, although not all of his descendants spelled it that way.  How and why is the stuff of family lore – the two brothers had a disagreement story – but I always check all spellings including McNeal and McKneal, neither of which he used personally but under both of which I’ve found records pertaining to this family.

George McNiel’s wife, Miss Coates, called variably Mary and Sarah, raised 9 children.  I’ve seen notes that she died in 1816, after George, but given that George’s 1790 census entry did not include a female of the correct age to be his wife, I suspect she died before 1790.  I’ve seen no actual evidence of an 1816 death.

The children of Rev. George McNiel and Miss Coates were:

  • Mary Hillary McNiel born 1757 – no further information and it is unknown if Hillary is accurate or not. If so, it could be a family surname.
  • John McNiel born 1759 married Fanny Cleveland
  • William McNiel born 1760/1761 died circa 1832 in Claiborne Co., TN, married Elizabeth Shepherd (my line)
  • James McNiel born circa 1763 died August 1834, married Mary “Polly” Shepherd
  • Benjamin McNiel born 1765 married Elizabeth Lips
  • Joseph McNiel born 1767 died circa 1855 married Hannah Wilson and Elizabeth Powell
  • Elizabeth McNiel born 1769 married Robert Bingham
  • Mary “Polly” McNiel born 1771 married Henry Miller

Additional information about George McNiel’s life has become available through other sources.

Revolutionary War Service at the Battle of King’s Mountain

As it turns out, the Reverend George McNiel had some part in the Revolutionary War himself.

In the North Carolina General Assembly, it is recorded that a bill to pay Elder George McNiel a pension for his Revolutionary War service was introduced.  It bounced around between committees, but no one questioned his service. However, the pension was denied on the basis that he had not officially enlisted in a militia unit and he had already been compensated for his horse.

It’s very likely that this is a result of the Battle of King’s Mountain.  Many descendant families carry the oral history that Elder George was at that battle on October 7, 1780, even though he was nearly 60 years of age.  The McNiel family was closely tied to the Cleveland family, and Benjamin Cleveland commanded the Wilkes militia in that battle.  George McNiel’s son, John was married to Benjamin Cleveland’s niece.

George McNiel is listed in the book, “The Patriots at Kings Mountain” by Bobby Gilmer Moss, as having been one of the soldiers at King’s Mountain, although no additional information is provided.

The Family Stories

What do we really know about the Reverend George McNiel?

We know that George was supposed to be from Glasgow, Scotland, born about 1720, but we have not one shred of evidence to prove that.  He and his brothers were supposedly educated at the University of Edinburgh for the Presbyterian ministry but again, no evidence.  I did check the University of Edinburgh web page and it said that, “Our records of students date back to the very first class which graduated in 1587. However they do not cover every student who ever attended the University. Because formal matriculation and graduation did not become mandatory until the nineteenth century, many do not appear in the records.”  I checked the records, which do not seem to be complete, and there was no McNiel or McNeal during this timeframe, but only the medical school was listed, so we still haven’t proven anything about George.

He reportedly immigrated about 1750 and landed in Maryland.  Reasonable, but again, no proof.  Other stories tell us he landed on the Cape Fear River.  Also possible.

He was Baptist minister.  Of that, we are positive, but we don’t know when he became Baptist.  However, there is a family story that covers that too.

The story says that for three months George and his brothers, unnamed, sailed the Atlantic and on the way to America, George and his brothers discussed religion, disagreed, and George seeing the light became a Baptist.  To show his disapproval, one brother changed the spelling of his name to McNeill.

The family story continues and part of it conflicts with the Baptist conversion on the boat above:

They came to N. C. and settled in Moore Co. between 1745-1750.  After arrival, George married Mary Coats.  They had 6 sons and 3 daughters.  He came as a Presbyterian preacher, but believing that he could reach the people better through the Baptist Church, switched and joined the church about the time of the Regulators Movement in 1771.  He joined the Regulators and after the Battle of Alamance fled for safety into Va. where he lived for a long time in Grayson Co.

I don’t believe that Moore County records have ever been checked, and they should be.  His signature does not appear on the Regulator Petition.  We do know that he was in Spotsylvania County, VA records in 1757, which seems to conflict with the dates above.  Although, the above information was provided by a grandson, so one would think he would be at least relatively familiar with his grandfather’s life.

Reverend George McNiel established churches, served as moderator of associations and served as the Wilkes Co. Register of Deeds 1787 to June 1805.

That we know is true.

He was a Chaplain in the Regiment of Col. Benjamin Cleveland during its famous campaign at Kings Mountain in the Revolutionary War.

This too appears to be true, according to the NC State Records, although I’d love to see the actual memorial document being referenced.  (N.C. State Records, Vol. p10, 14, 18, 58, 241, 287-288 296).

Several descendants have written articles, or in one case, a small book, about the Reverend George McNiel and his descendants, this one being from a 1934 reunion.

During the past several years I have accumulated a lot of information on the McNiel family, including the reports by various branches of the family filed at the McNiel reunion held at Millers Creek in Wilkes Co., September 2, 1934.

The McNiels and their relatives in Wilkes, Caldwell, Watauga, Ashe, Surry and Tennessee, South Carolina, Iowa and Texas are descended from Rev. George McNiel who was born in Scotland.  He is said to have married Mary Coates in Virginia.  We are able to know that he was living at Deep Ford Hill of Reddies River as early as March 1778 for in that month he filed an entry no 35 for 120 acres of land, including his improvements (buildings), adjoining the lands of Roland Judd and Robert Shepherd, see entry 35, deed book B-1, page 188.  This affords good proof why George’s sons, James and William, married Mary and Elizabeth Shepherd, daughters of Robert.  There are sixteen references to him in the “Land of Wilkes” besides the one on page 444 referring to his land entry and his improvement at Deep Ford Hill of Reddies River.

For convenience I shall spell the name McNiel although it often appears McNeal, McKneal or McNeill (or NcNeil).

In addition to his extensive activities as an early Baptist preacher, establishing churches, serving as Elder (pastor) and his attendance at the associations over which he often served as moderator, he served Wilkes Co., as Register of Deeds from 1787 to June 1805, having died June 7, 1805.

The exact time is not known but he moved from Deep Ford Hill to the north prong of Lewis Creek at what became the Parsonsville Post Office where he died and was buried.  Rev. W.H. Eller of Greensboro caused a monument to be erected at his grave on June 7, 1905, the 100th anniversary of his death, a pamphlet of which was published and a historical sketch is copied in Hook’s Book on George Michael Eller, pages 397-400.  This book is in the Wilkes Public Library and in the libraries of the Wilkes High Schools.

On the map below, which shows the 1786 Wilkes County militia districts, you can see that both Reddies River and Lewis Fork are between the numbers 6 and 10, just below the Blue Ridge Mountain divide.  Today, that divide defined the path of  the Blue Ridge Parkway.

Wilkes 1786 militia districts

Another record tell us that the Reverend George McNiel was a charter member of the Brier Creek Baptist Church in 1783.  Of course, he formed the Deep Ford Church.  In 1790, he was moderator of the meeting of delegates  who formed the Yadkin Valley Association of Baptist Churches.  It was this group who funded the Reverend George to “travel on” in the name of the association, which he apparently did.  Other churches in the region listing the Reverend George McNiel in their formation or as a member include Beaver Creek, Head of Yadkin, Three Forks (3 miles east of Boone, served as pastor,) Roaring River and Lewis Fork where he was a pastor.  Many McNiels are buried at Lewis Fork on highway 421 between Wilkesboro and Boone, NC.

Where Is George?

We first find George McNiel in the records of Spotsylvania County, VA, an unlikely location if he arrived via the Cape Fear River in NC.  There are also other McNiel men there at that time, possibly the brothers of the “3 brothers” story.  To add to the long debated topic of whether the George McNiel (McNeil) of Spotsylvania County is the brother of Thomas McNiel of that same county, I offer the following information from the book Apprentices of Virginia, 1723-1800.

James Cartwright, a white male, son of Thomas Cartwright decd, was to be apprenticed to Thomas McNial on October 1, 1754 to learn the occupation of a tailor.  This is from the county court order books, 1749-1755, pages 62 and 497.

Robert Mitchell, a white male, was apprenticed to Thomas McNeil on Sept 7, 1761 to learn the occupation of tailor.  Spotsylvania Co. will book B, 1749, 1859, page 540.

James Pey, a white male, to be apprenticed to George McNeil on March 1, 1757 to learn the occupation of tailor.  From Spotsylvania will book B 1749-1759, page 307.

I do find that both George and Thomas were tailors (or had tailors on their plantations) is an indicator that these men might have both been tailors themselves, or that they were related in some way.

In 1786, George McNiel witnessed a deed for John Shepherd in Spotsylvania Co., Va.  Keep in mind that George’s son, William, married Elizabeth Shepherd, daughter of Robert Shephard in 1781/1782.  These records put George in Spotsylvania County for 20 years and perhaps more.  The Shepherd family was from Spotsylvania County, as well.

The book “The McNeil Family” written by Mrs. Dorothy McNeil Moore (looks like about a 1950s booklet) of which the original is in the Wilkes Co. NC library, states that Rev. McNiel came to NC about 1750, later moving to Grayson Co., VA and then back to NC.  We know that he was living at Deep Ford Hill of the Reddies River as early as 1778, for in that month he filed entry no 35 for 120 acres of land, including his improvements adjoining the lands of Roland Judd and Robert Shepherd.

However, the 1786 deed in Spotsylvania County and the 1778 land application seem to conflict with each other, unless he was going back and forth, which is possible.

George McNiel, the Preacher

From the book, History of Western North Carolina, chapter entitled Pioneer Preachers:

First Church in the Mountains – According to Col. W. L. Bryan of Boone, the first church established west of the Blue Ridge and east of the Smokies was at what is still called “Three Forks of New River in what is now Watauga county, a beautiful spot.” It was organized November 6, 1790. The following is from its records:

“A book containing (as may be seen) in the covenant and conduct of the Baptist church of Jesus Christ in Wilkes county,… New River, Three Forks settlement.”

“This is the mother of all the Baptist churches throughout this great mountain region. From this mother church using the language of these old pioneers, they established arms of the mother church; one at what is now known as the Globe in Caldwell county, another to the westward, known as Ebinezer, one to the northeast named South Fork . . . and at various other points. Yet, it should be remembered that the attendance upon the worship of the mother church extended for many, many miles, reaching into Tennessee.” After these “arms” had been established “there was organized Three Forks Baptist association, which bears the name to this day, and is the oldest and most venerated religious organization known throughout the mountains. Among the first pastors of the mother church were Rev. Mr. Barlow of Yadkin, George McNeill of Wilkes, John G. Bryan who died in Georgia at the age of 98, Nathaniel Vannoy of Wilkes…”

Reverend McNiel was very active in the formation of the Yadkin Valley church association.

Minutes of the Mountain Asson. Began & held the 4th Saturday in August 1800 at Fox Creek in Grayson County, Virginia.

Names of Churches No. Delegate Names Readyes River 1 Thos. Johnson, Jas. Querry, Natt. Judd Three Forks of New River 2 Jos. Chambers, Jas. McCaleb & Shadrack Brown Beaver Creek 3 Wm. Landsdown Hd. Of the Yadkin 4 Solomon Smith, Jonathan Boon Lewises Fork 5 George McNeil, Natt. Vannoy…

He was then given the assignment of visiting another church and helping them with making decisions.

Yadkin Baptist Association. — This association constituted the Three forks association in 1790. From it many other churches had been organized east of the Blue Ridge.

{1} – William’s History of the North Carolina Baptists. In 1779 King’s Creek Church, in Caldwell, and Beaver Creek, in Wilkes, were organized. A few years later Brier Creek, in Wilkes, was constituted. It had many “arms,”{2} and from it grew Lewis Fork, in Wilkes, and Old Fields Church, in Ashe County. Three Forks was constituted by the Yadkin Baptist Association. It became an association itself in 1840. {3} – According to Rev. Henry Sheet’s History, “arms” were church communities which had not been regularly organized into constituted churches.

In 1790 Three Forks Church, the first in Watauga, was constituted. Part of the original members of this church came from the Jersey Settlement Church. Cove Creek was the second church in Watauga, being organized in 1799. At first these churches had only log houses in which to worship. The floors were rude, and large cracks were in the walls, so that they were often uncomfortable in winter. But the praises of God rang out from the lips and hearts of these old Baptist fathers. These churches first joined the Strawberry Association in Virginia, but in 1790 withdrew to organize the Yadkin Association. The first ministers of this body were George McNeil, John Cleveland, William Petty, William Hammond, Cleveland Coffee, Andrew Baker and John Stone . . . Later on, the Mountain, Catawba and Brier Creek Associations were formed, and so the Yadkin Baptists continued steadily to grow.

Note that the McNiel line and the Vannoy line were closely connected and intermarried often.  The Vannoy family came from the Jersey Settlement in Rowan County.

The Reverend George McNiel’s name was found in association with several churches.  He appeared to have “traveled on” in the name of the association, judging from their minutes, and helped to establish many churches, including the Brier Creek Baptist Church in 1783, Beaver Creek, Head of Yadkin, Three Forks (3 miles east of Boone, as pastor,) and Roaring River.  Lewis Fork Baptist Church, very near where he lived, was established in 1792 and he was the first pastor. Many McNiel’s are buried there today in the cemetery shown below.

Lewis fork

This current photo is from Find-A-Grave where you can view the burials.

The 100th Anniversary – 1905

Other tidbits of information came to us in other ways.  One hundred years after his death, his descendants honored him with a speech and a monument among other things.

Captain SIMEON ELLER married Frances McNeill, daughter of James McNeill, the third son of Rev. George McNeill. This Rev. George McNeill was a man of great power and influence. He came to North Carolina and settled in Moore County about the time of the French and Indian War. About 1771 he joined the Baptist Church, and, his denominational brethren having suffered much at the hands of the royalists, with them he went into the famous Regulator Movement, which met its overthrow as an organization at the Battle of Alamance. Fleeing for safety from Governor Tryon’s revenge, he lived for a short time in Western Virginia, finally, however, returning to North Carolina, where he settled in the Yadkin Valley above Wilkesboro, near New Hope Church. He was ordained as a Baptist minister in 1776 and became the great pioneer Baptist preacher of northwestern North Carolina, organizing the Yadkin Association in 1786, which is the parent of associations now claiming a membership of 35,000. On June 7, 1805, after a long and useful life and a most remarkable and successful career in the ministry, he passed away. Upon the centennial of this event in 1905 his large number of descendants and the Baptists hosts of northwestern North Carolina erected a monument to his memory, Rev. W.H. ELLER, of Greensboro, a great-grandson, delivering the address.

A memorial booklet of 17 pages, with paper cover, was printed in 1905 by the committee authorized in the above resolution, to record the address of Mr. Eller and other papers concerning the life and times of Rev. McNiel. this booklet was distributed to the various Baptist Associations in North Carolina, to certain libraries and Historical Associations, to descendants of Rev. McNiel and to friends of the family.

Mr. Eller spoke as follows;

In accordance with the resolution of the Brushy Mountain Association providing therefor the committee of Arrangements has made it my privilege to address you at this place where the repose of the mortal remains of our ancestor. He entered into his rest one hundred years ago today, an old man and full of years, and his sons buried him in this mountain field across the stream from which he had his home when the country was new and where he had for some years passed his days, when not upon his itinerant gospel missions. This piece of ground was his also and dedicated to become and remain the resting place of the dead until by the will of God the trumpet shall sound and the dead in Christ shall arise.”

The oldest piece of manuscript in which we find any written account of the subject of this Memorial is without date. It is signed by his son Joseph McNeil, and was found among papers left by Rev. James Vannoy (who was born June 27, 1792, and died February 19, 1857), It was probably written for Benedict’s History of the Baptists. Joseph McNeil, as memory has marked him, was born in the year 1767 and lived to 185-. We remember him as a man of advanced age and decrepitude in 1852. His statement with reference to his father reads as follows:

The Rev. Mr. George McNeil was bornd on or about the year 1720 and was ordained some time before the year 1776, but the exact time I cannot tel, and he was frequently a corresponding messenger to different associations, frequently appointed a help to churches whose difficulties arose in them, and was called to ordain preachers, and constitute churches, and was Moderator of the Yadkin Association for a number of years, and he and the Rev. Mr. John Cleveland went in the Revolutionary War with the army as they went from Kings Mountain and preached to them until they got up into Burke County. Him and the Rev’d Mr. A. Baker yoused to preach a great deal together. He departed this life June the 7th, 1805. This is correct an account as I am able to give.

(signed)                              Joseph McNiel

George’s Voice

Do we have anything that the Reverend George McNiel said, himself, something in his own words.  Indeed, I think we do, in the form of information taken from the book, George Michael Eller and Descendants of His in America compiled by James W. Hook.

Being assembled together in the fear of the Lord we thought it expedient to write unto you certifying that we have received a very agreeable account from the different quarters of our District Association especially when the brethren came to testify by their gifts that you walked in the truth, they being faithful. both to brethren and strangers. Seeing that the Lord hath afforded you the gracious visitations of his divine favors by sending forth his servants, crying at the door, thereby figuring out the glorious dispensation under which you live.

Brethren remember the wonderful displays of divine power amongst you and rejoice when you hear the voice of the turtle sounding in our land. Gird on the whole armor of God. March in order at the sound of the trumpet, be continually on the watch guard and see that you fall not by the way, believing always that He that is your Advance Guard has promised that he will lead captive your enemies and put them under an eternal arrest. Therefore beloved march forward in the powerful influence of his Holy Spirit, strive to love and serve Him in this world and finally to enjoy Him in the world to come, and as we have been favored with much harmony in our deliberations we trust that the Lord hath enabled us to act for the welfare of Zion. Whilst we bid you farewell in the Lord, be ye faithful. Be ye of one mind and the God of love and grace be with you all-Amen

‘signed by order of the Association’                     George McNiel, Moderator

I sort of feel like I just heard a mini-sermon from George.  Amen!

What About George’s Brothers?

Thomas McNeil was living in Caswell Co., taken from Orange in 1777, when he made his will dated April 20, 1781 in which he named his children.  He named three sons, Thomas, John and Benjamin.  No relationship has been established between that Thomas and the McNeil’s of other counties.

Thomas McNeil’s will:

In the name of God Amen I Thomas McNeil of Caswell Co NC being weak of body but sound of mind and memory do  April 20th 1781make this my last will and testament in the manner following.  I give unto my living wife Ann the use of all my personal estate during her life or widowhood.  I give unto my son Thomas a tract of land lying on Sanderses Creek containing 200 acres which land I bought of my son John and my desire is that my said son John do make a right of said land to my son Thomas.  I give unto my son Benjamin 150 acres joining the lines of Andrew Caddell and my son John Land to him and his heirs forever.  I give to my daughter Mary 100 acres of land lying on Henley’s Creek joining Wilson Vermillions line to her and her heirs forever.  At the death of my loving wife that my sons Thomas and Benjamin have each of them a horse and saddle and a bed which horses to be of the value of 10 pounds in specie also the plantation working tools I desire may be equally devided between them.  I further give unto my daughter Mary one feather bed and furniture and two  cows and calves after the death of my loving wife.  All of my negroes and their increase after the death or marriage of my loving wife be by three honest men equally divided amongst my 8 children, or the survivors of them, to wit John, Thomas, Benjamin, Elizabeth Roberts, Nancy Vermilion, Mary, Patsey Hubbert and Lois to them and their heirs forever.  Lastly I nominate and appoint my wife Ann , my son John and my son-in-law Wilson Vermillion and George Lea (son of William) executors of this my last will and testament revoking all other wills by me made in witness whereof I have hereunto sett my hand and seal…signed.  Witnessed George Lea, Lucy Lea, John Clixby.  Proved Dec court 1781.

It has long been rumored that Thomas is the brother of George.  DNA testing would certainly shed light on that question.  He had sons John, Thomas and Benjamin, so it’s certainly possible that Thomas McNeil has male descendants that carry his surname, meaning they also carry his Y chromosome, today.

I’d also love to DNA test any of the Spotsylvania County McNiel lines.  I’d also love to find baptism or other records in the old country, but I really have no idea how to go about that search, beyond what I’ve already done.  Seems like a needle in a very large haystack.

A Visit to Wilkes County

When I visited Wilkes Co. in 2003 and 2004, I spent time with historian George McNeil whose wife, Joyce, also my cousin in the Vannoy side, had recently passed away.  This was a very sad time for George, but he was kind and gracious and took me to see the grave of the Reverend George McNiel as well as where George McNiel had lived, shown below.  I believe this photo is of Deep Ford Hill where George originally live.  Unfortunately, I only labeled it as “George McNiel’s land” after my Wilkes County visit several years ago.

McNiel land

Originally, George was the minister at the Deep Ford Meeting house, and there used to be a cemetery there.  George McNiel, currently living, tells me that the owners sometime in the 1900s bulldozed all of the markers into the ditch/creek and farm the land now.

Another cousin, Jack Peterson, told me in 2003 that Reverend George McNiel’s home that he owned when he died, and where he is buried, on the north fork of Lewis Fork Creek is still visible “from Parsonsville Road when the leaves aren’t out.” He says it’s known as the old Walsh House, which still stands in front of the remains of George’s home. Lewis Fork is about 15-20 miles from Wilkesboro, the county seat, where George was the registrar of deeds from 1787-1805.  Maybe he stayed in town for part of the time.

The Reverend George McNiel’s grave is located in a location where someone who didn’t know the area would stand no chance of finding it.  It’s behind a mobile home, up lane, across a field, and not visible from the road.

geo mcniel cem

The stone was placed in 1905 to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the passing of this legendary man.  His descendants certainly didn’t forget him.  Unfortunately, his wife’s grave, which most likely lies beside his, is entirely unmarked and she is only remembered in passing as “Miss Coates.”  I find that very unfortunate and very sad, especially since it would have been George’s wife that kept the home fires burning and everything running well while George was traveling the country visiting and founding churches.

Geo McNiel stone

Geo McNiel stone 2

The names of the committee members are inscribed on the third side of the monument.

Geo McNiel stone 3

It’s actually a quiet and beautiful location.

Geo Mcniel stone 5

This is known as the Elder George McNiel site and is available on Find-A-Grave here.

Cousin George McNiel told me that the old chimney standing across the road (at that time) was what was left of George’s daughter’s home.

geo mcniel dau house

George also gave me a copy of the book, Genealogy of the McNiel Clan by Johnson J. Hayes 1846-1929, Wilkesboro, NC.  From which much information has been taken, including annotations made by George and his wife over the years.

DNA and the McNiels

Between the years of 1755 and 1770 one or more McNiel families emigrated to NC and settled on the Cape Fear River.  Others came and settled in the Shenandoah Valley of Va.  Are these families related?

Cousin George McNeil, in 2005, provided a DNA sample to represent the Wilkes County McNiel family in the McNeil family DNA project.  The results indicated that this McNiel clan is from Ireland, not Scotland, originally.  This cross immigration is not unusual.

We need a DNA candidate from the Thomas McNeil of Caswell Co., NC.

McNiel Clan History

The history of the McNiel clan is set forth in the book, The Clann Macneil by the Macneil of Barra, chief of the clan, published in 1923 by the Caledonian publishing company.  It tells a fanciful story of how one Niall of Scythia was invited into Egypt by Pharoh Cingeris and of the great work he accomplished in regulating the flow of the Nile River, which was named for him.  He married Princess Ecota, the Phariah’s daughter who rescued Moses from the bullrushes and by her had a son, Gaedhal, or Gael, after whom the race was named.

According to the book,

The McNiel family itself descends from one of the Noblest clans of Scotland, which traces its ancestry without interruption through a long dynasty of Irish kinds to Niall of the Nine Hostages who ascended the Throne of Ireland in the year 379 AD.  Before that, according to Irish chroniclers, the line runs back to Niall of Scythia dn beyond him to Fenius the Antiquarian, son of Boath, son of Magog, son of Japhet, son of Noah.

The first Macneil of Barra settled on the island of that name off the west coast of Scotland about 1050 AD.  From him is descended the Highland Scottish Clan Macneil.  The Clann Macneil Association was formed to perpetuate interest in the family and all members of which claim descent from Scottish progenitors of common ancestry.

Cousin George McNiel of Wilkes County was convinced that our McNiel family was from the McNeil of Barra line, and so was everyone else.  That’s what our family had been told.  In fact, in George’s home, a beautiful water-color of Kisimul Castle on the Isle of Barra is framed and hangs, matted in McNeil tartan colors.

Kisimul castle

The DNA Story

That, however surprisingly, is not what the DNA tells us.  It tells a different story.

Cousin George tested his Y DNA at Family Tree DNA.  Needless to say, when we saw the “Niall of the Nine Hostages” badge, we were thrilled.9 hostages

However, that turned to shock when we realized that while we were confirmed to be descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages, we don’t match the Barra McNeil families, and they don’t descend from Niall of the Nine Hostages.  Furthermore, there are two Barra McNiel lines and we don’t match either of them.

We do match several McNiels and a few O’Niels from Ireland, of whom a few have tested positive for M222, previously known as R1b1a2a1a1b4b, a subclade of haplogroup R1b1a2 (M269).

However, much to our surprise, according to the subgrouping on the MacNeil project at family tree DNA, the two Barra groups test at SNPs L176 and L165, both of which are Norse.

barra groups

Cousin George does have several STR 67 marker matches, two of which are from Ireland but who don’t know where in Ireland.

The M222 Northwest Irish group in the McNiel project is quite sizeable, although at 67 markers, cousin George only matches 4 other McNiel (by any spelling) men.

niall group

Several participants haven’t tested at 67 markers, so cousin George has a lot more matches at lower levels.

So, what does this tell us?

Well, the McNeils of Barra aren’t descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages, and our line is.  Maybe cousin George should take his picture of Kisimul castle down and install a picture of Tara, legendary seat of Niall of the Nine Hostages instead.

Who Is Niall of the Nine Hostages?

For many years, doubt existed that Niall of the Nine Hostages, known as Niall Noigiallach, existed as an actual person outside of mythology.  However, DNA findings first published in 2005 out of Trinity College in Dublin confirm genetically that indeed, a very powerful and prolific male did live about 1700 years ago, and from that male one out of every five males, 21.5%, living in Northern Ireland today have inherited his Y chromosome.   Researchers and historians indicate that there could be as many as 3 million descendants of Niall alive today.  If you live in Ireland, it’s almost inconceivable that you’re not descended from Niall, if not directly through the patrilineal line, then via marriage someplace in the approximately 64 generations between Niall and those of us alive today.

The following is reported by Geoffrey Keating in 1636:

After the Scots from Ireland, together with their king Niall Naoighíallach, had plundered many territories in opposition to the Roman sovereignty, they severely pillaged Britain—the northern portion of it at first; and when they had banished the old tribes from it, they themselves dwelt in it.

Histories vary, but the older and less well known version states that Niall’s hostages were taken from each of the nine subjugated tribal dynasties of the Ulster kingdom of Airghialla, among the first of Niall’s conquests.  Later scribes record that he took one hostage each from Ireland’s 5 provinces, Munster, Ulster, Leinster, Connacht and Mide, as well as from the Scots, Saxons, British and French.  Today, the Aghade Stone is endowed with folklore that associates it with one of Niall’s hostages.

An ancient bard composed the following lyrics about Niall and his hostages:

Son of the noble Eochaidh of honour
Was Niall, modest in each high distinction;
He held the sovereignty of successions
In Erin and in Alba.
He got a hostage from each province
In Erin through high valour;
He brought under his sway, without blemish,
Four hostages from Alba.
Hence he was called
In the mansions of the great,
Through the gold of the prosperous kings,
Niall of the nine hostages, the heroic.

Four accounts survive of Niall’s death, all of them in texts dating after the 11th century. In each Niall is pursued by Eochaid, son of the archrival Leinster king Énna Cennselach. Eochaid’s enmity begins when he is refused food by Laidcenn, Niall’s poet, for which he burns Laidcenn’s house and kills his son. In revenge, Laidcenn satirizes Leinster, depriving it of all foliage for a year, and Niall invades it. Eventually Eochaid is turned over to Niall by the Leinstermen, but kills Laidcenn with a stone, causing Niall to banish him for the rest of the ruler’s life.

Later, while Niall is abroad, Eochaid kills him either (1) in Scotland, while Niall is being entertained by Pictish bards; (2) in the Alps (which may be a confusion with Alba [Scotland]); (3) in the English Channel; or (4) by the River Loire in France.

In all versions his body is returned to be buried at Ochann/ Ocha [folk-etymologized into och cáini, sighing and weeping], now known as Faughan Hill, Southwest of Kells and 3 miles South of the assembly at Tailtiu.

Niall’s place in Irish history was assured by the Uí Néill dynasty, founded by eight of his (perhaps) fifteen sons. Four sons established the northern branch, displacing the Ulaid of Ulster, with small, powerful kingdoms in Tír Chonaill [Donegal] and Tír Eógain [Tyrone], and four other sons along with Diarmait mac Cerbaill established the southern branch in the midlands, adjacent to Tara, over the modern counties of Meath, Westmeath, and Longford. They kept the kingship at Tara between them, deeply influencing the writing of history as well as the development of Christian institutions.

niall pedigree

Interestingly enough, the ancient bard’s verbiage further tells us that Niall was blonde, primrosevery blonde; “as yellow as the primrose was the hair upon the head of Cairenn’s son.”  Furthermore, the next line tells us that his mother had black curly hair, inferring that it’s likely that Niall inherited his blonde hair from his father’s side.

Tara today is an archaeological site which includes the Hill of Tara, aerial view below, passage mounds, one named Mound of the Hostages in honor of Niall, and the reputed Lai Fail, coronation stone, named the “Stone of Destiny”, immediately below, although some dispute that this is the original stone.

stone of destiny

Most of Tara is unexcavated today, although it is known to have been in use as early as 3500BC and is known as the seat of the “High King of Ireland.”  Most of its known 300 features are below ground.  Recently a huge temple, over 170 feet in diameter, has been discovered.

tara hill

Amazing isn’t it where your DNA and genealogy will take you….Wilkes County, NC to Tara in Ireland nearly 2000 years ago.  Go figure.  Wouldn’t Reverend George have been surprised!

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